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froody
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Re: Wiki energy. revival.
« Reply #15 on: Feb 23rd, 2013, 12:33pm »
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on Feb 23rd, 2013, 9:01am, Fritzlein wrote:

Editing down to only the bits that concern the game is already a significant improvement to quality...

 
This is how wikis work. Say I watch the game, but don't have time or don't feel like writing a report. So I cut and paste a big lump of the chatlog into a page, and link that page to the empty report page. Now we have something. Then someone else comes along and edits out bits of the chat that aren't relevant. Better. Then someone else comes along and the chat jogs their memory and gives them ideas for the report...
 
If you always say 'I'm not going to make this page because I don't have time to make it super high quality', then the wiki won't have many pages. If you want to sit down and publish real quality, write a book (oh, you did! kudos). But yeah, a wiki is not the same as publishing a book.
 
Something is (nearly) always better than nothing. (I don't buy your argument about information having negative value. That attitude seems to me to be: 'we have to babysit the user and protect them from wasting their time. They are not smart and responsible enough to decide for themselves if the chatlog is useful.' )
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Re: Wiki energy. revival.
« Reply #16 on: Feb 23rd, 2013, 4:08pm »
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on Feb 23rd, 2013, 9:54am, supersamu wrote:
If this is going to be the thread where we will dicuss changes on the wiki, I suggest that you use a different name for the subject, like "Changes on the ArimaaWiki and the WikiBook - Community help appreciated". I think that would attract more Forum users. You could edit your first post to have several sections:
 

 
Sure. If you start a new forum thread I will post change ideas there. Or maybe have a wiki pages for it? Both? Whatever works / gets progress.
 
Quote:
- Pages that need editing:
(I would like if you add these two )  
http://arimaa.com/arimaa/mwiki/index.php/Beginner%27s_Guide_to_the_Arima a_gameroom
 
http://arimaa.com/arimaa/mwiki/index.php/Why_we_love_Arimaa
 
-What you can do:
An inspirational text about everyone being able to participate, nobody having to worry about making mistakes and that even beginners can write good texts. After that some Info on how to create a wiki account.
 

 
ya. I don't know if I'm good at inspirational text or not. But yeah, I think it's really important to encourage everyone to join in and not worry about making mistakes. So good idea to put this on a page.
 
I would like to open the wiki so that anyone can edit and create accounts, but we tried that last year and got a ton of spam.
 
 
Quote:
-Long-term-projects (and their advancement)
Personally, I think we can write a lot more about strategical and tactical stuff not only in the wiki, but also in the wikibook.
We could have some pages about camel hostages, E+H-attacks, elephant blockades, EHH-Setups and so on.

 
ya. Most of that should probably go in the wikibook. I think the best thing to help people to learn is to write good game reports. Encourage people to play through the games of masters. Also more 'goal in 2' type puzzles would be good.
 
Quote:
I think these three sections would be a good start.
I also think that an important part is that you write "done!(maybe you can also write by whom)" after an article has been rewritten or written. I imagine something like this:
 
Pages that need editing:
- ...
- ...
- http://arimaa.com/arimaa/mwiki/index.php/Beginner%27s_Guide_to_the_Arima a_gameroom done by froody!
- ...
- ...
 
 I think that would be a motivational boost. Will you be active enough to edit your first post every two weeks or so? I know that you have written all of this, but I think if you would organize your first post better, people will be more willing to read what you wrote.  
Another idea that comes to my mind is a fourth section where all the "completed" wiki pages are that don´t need editing any more. You could also assign priorities to the soon-to-be-edited pages. Maybe moving the motivational section to the top is better as well. Please consider these suggestions. I don´t want to dictate what you have to do, just remember that we are in the same boat.

 
ya. The wiki itself has support for this. It shows recent changes, top contributors, popular pages, etc. But if you want to create a page with more info like this, go for it. Or use the forum. Or both. Whatever works. Let the people decide, vote with feet, etc. Don't dictate, DIY!  
 
(btw: other people have put a lot more work into making Arimaa cool than I have. My contribution so far has been small.)
 
Quote:
Note: I don´t want to express with my post that the community has done so little on the wiki, on the contrary,  I think that the Arimaawiki is more awesome than one could expect from such a small community.  
Edit2: Maybe you can use this picture as well, froody:
http://s7.directupload.net/file/d/3175/qkcna5dd_jpg.htm

 
hehe. But I'm an anarchist! That man scares me.
 
To sum up: Don't Panic. Don't worry. Just Do It.
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Re: Wiki energy. revival.
« Reply #17 on: Feb 23rd, 2013, 6:17pm »
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Middle way: don't cut & paste dump the chat log, but link to the day, and post the period of time.
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Re: Wiki energy. revival.
« Reply #18 on: Feb 23rd, 2013, 8:15pm »
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on Feb 23rd, 2013, 12:33pm, froody wrote:
This is how wikis work. Say I watch the game, but don't have time or don't feel like writing a report. So I cut and paste a big lump of the chatlog into a page, and link that page to the empty report page. Now we have something. Then someone else comes along and edits out bits of the chat that aren't relevant. Better. Then someone else comes along and the chat jogs their memory and gives them ideas for the report...

Yes, that is sometimes how wikis works.  Sometimes they work this way instead: someone dumps in a bunch of junk on a page.  Everyone ignores it.  A year later, someone who is new to the game goes to look at the event record of the 2013 Arimaa World Championship.  They find the page of junk.  They are unimpressed.  They stop reading the wiki because the quality is so low, and they don't have time to filter through the junk.  They therefore don't ever encounter the good information that is in other places on the wiki.  Since their time has been wasted, they give up and leave.
 
Time is finite and precious.  If you want to be ignored by other people, waste their time.
 
Quote:
If you always say 'I'm not going to make this page because I don't have time to make it super high quality', then the wiki won't have many pages.

There is a middle ground between a super high quality page and a chat log dump.
 
Quote:
Something is (nearly) always better than nothing.

Except when it is worse than nothing.
 
Quote:
(I don't buy your argument about information having negative value. That attitude seems to me to be: 'we have to babysit the user and protect them from wasting their time. They are not smart and responsible enough to decide for themselves if the chatlog is useful.' )

I don't buy your argument about information always being more useful than the time it takes to mine it out of garbage.  That attitude seems to me to be: 'we don't have to treat the user with respect because we didn't promise them anything.  If they get anything at all out of the page, no matter with how much effort required on their part, they should thank us for making their lives better.'
« Last Edit: Feb 23rd, 2013, 8:15pm by Fritzlein » IP Logged

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Re: Wiki energy. revival.
« Reply #19 on: Feb 23rd, 2013, 8:22pm »
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on Feb 23rd, 2013, 4:08pm, froody wrote:
Also more 'goal in 2' type puzzles would be good.

Check out this page by aaaa:
http://arimaa.com/arimaa/mwiki/index.php/Category:Unique_wins_in_2
discussion here:
http://arimaa.com/arimaa/forum/cgi/YaBB.cgi?board=talk;action=display;nu m=1349743969
 
Now that's what I call a good start to a wiki page!  But still this fine contribution to the community could be made even better by someone collecting the more interesting of those puzzles, categorizing them, and annotating them.  As wonderful as this resource is, the density of good information could be made higher.
« Last Edit: Feb 23rd, 2013, 9:13pm by Fritzlein » IP Logged

froody
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Re: Wiki energy. revival.
« Reply #20 on: Feb 23rd, 2013, 9:58pm »
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on Feb 23rd, 2013, 8:15pm, Fritzlein wrote:

Yes, that is sometimes how wikis works.  Sometimes they work this way instead: someone dumps in a bunch of junk on a page.  Everyone ignores it.  A year later, someone who is new to the game goes to look at the event record of the 2013 Arimaa World Championship.  They find the page of junk.  They are unimpressed.  They stop reading the wiki because the quality is so low, and they don't have time to filter through the junk.  They therefore don't ever encounter the good information that is in other places on the wiki.  Since their time has been wasted, they give up and leave.
 
Time is finite and precious.  If you want to be ignored by other people, waste their time.
 
There is a middle ground between a super high quality page and a chat log dump.
 
Except when it is worse than nothing.
 
I don't buy your argument about information always being more useful than the time it takes to mine it out of garbage.  That attitude seems to me to be: 'we don't have to treat the user with respect because we didn't promise them anything.  If they get anything at all out of the page, no matter with how much effort required on their part, they should thank us for making their lives better.'

 
Ya. I get your argument, and it's right/fair that the Arimaa wiki follows your philosophy, rather than mine. So that is what we will do!
 
(but I'm going to type out my argument anyway! (feel free not to read it!:-))
 
I like to give people the choice. I can never have too much information. I can swim. If I go to a wiki, something is always better than nothing. I am responsible for dealing with the info. If I waste my time reading junk - I'm an idiot. If I see junk and that causes me to run away and not find the gold - I'm an idiot. You want to babysit the user and treat them like idiots. I want to treat them as smart and responsible informavores, and give them as many options as possible.
 
But, middle ground. Yeah. I can accept that. I guess!
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Re: Wiki energy. revival.
« Reply #21 on: Feb 23rd, 2013, 10:05pm »
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I should replace 'idiot' with 'inferior informavore'. Cos it has a nice ring to it, and people get upset when you start throwing around words like 'idiot'! See! I am learning. Slowly.
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Re: Wiki energy. revival.
« Reply #22 on: Feb 23rd, 2013, 10:16pm »
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on Feb 23rd, 2013, 6:17pm, hyperpape wrote:
Middle way: don't cut & paste dump the chat log, but link to the day, and post the period of time.

 
This loses the ability to edit out the irrelevant bits. And I don't see what we gain. Either way, you click a link, you see the chatlog. What does it matter if it's a link to the chat archive, or a link to a wiki page? (I should point out that I not upset if we don't have any links to the chat. It was just an idea. But when people give arguments against ideas, I feel compelled to refute them if I think they're wrong! (I wish I didn't!))
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Re: Wiki energy. revival.
« Reply #23 on: Feb 24th, 2013, 8:06am »
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on Feb 23rd, 2013, 9:58pm, froody wrote:
You want to babysit the user and treat them like idiots.

on Feb 23rd, 2013, 10:16pm, froody wrote:
But when people give arguments against ideas, I feel compelled to refute them if I think they're wrong! (I wish I didn't!))

Pro tip: it doesn't count as refuting someone's argument to say something they don't believe and didn't say (in this case that I want to babysit users and treat them like idiots) and argue against that instead of arguing against something they do believe and did say.  That's called a straw man tactic.
 
I wondered how you would react to it if I used a straw man on you by saying that you want to waste people's time.  How does it feel to have someone attribute things to you that you never said and don't believe?  You just ignored it.  I guess I would win more arguments if I totally ignored the unreasonable parts of what other people say, and went on to make my case without being drawn in.  Hey, I learned something today!  Smiley
 
We don't have to discuss this until we agree, and co-existing in a state of disagreement, we can each behave as we see fit.  I know that if you create undigestible wiki pages, it is not because you disrespect users, want to waste their time, and don't care if they leave in disgust.  I know that your motivation is instead to make the world a better place.  Since I know that is your motivation, I won't object further; I will rather stand back and see whether the reality is that the pages you start eventually evolve in the way you predict when others join in your project, or whether those pages stay static until they are eventually improved by deletion.  Smiley
« Last Edit: Feb 24th, 2013, 8:09am by Fritzlein » IP Logged

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Re: Wiki energy. revival.
« Reply #24 on: Feb 24th, 2013, 11:53am »
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on Feb 24th, 2013, 8:06am, Fritzlein wrote:
Pro tip: it doesn't count as refuting someone's argument to say something they don't believe and didn't say (in this case that I want to babysit users and treat them like idiots) and argue against that instead of arguing against something they do believe and did say.  That's called a straw man tactic.

 
It's not strawman. It follows from what you said. You have no way to escape it.  
 
"They stop reading the wiki because the quality is so low, and they don't have time to filter through the junk. "
 
If they can't parse information quickly, they must be retarded. If they see one page of junk and make the assumption that it's all junk, they must be an idiot.
 
They can't not be an idiot and behave in the way you say.
 
Quote:
I wondered how you would react to it if I used a straw man on you by saying that you want to waste people's time.  How does it feel to have someone attribute things to you that you never said and don't believe?  You just ignored it.  I guess I would win more arguments if I totally ignored the unreasonable parts of what other people say, and went on to make my case without being drawn in.  Hey, I learned something today!  Smiley

 
I would react by saying I'm not forcing them to do anything. I'm given them the choice. You are taking the choice away from them. You are dictating what they can/can't read. It's about increasing freedom.
 
Interesting about winning arguments. Don't be a sophist. I think the trick is to refute/dismiss things that you think are unreasonable very quickly/tersely and spend more time attacking the strong parts of the argument.
 
Quote:
We don't have to discuss this until we agree, and co-existing in a state of disagreement, we can each behave as we see fit.  I know that if you create undigestible wiki pages, it is not because you disrespect users, want to waste their time, and don't care if they leave in disgust.  I know that your motivation is instead to make the world a better place.  Since I know that is your motivation, I won't object further; I will rather stand back and see whether the reality is that the pages you start eventually evolve in the way you predict when others join in your project, or whether those pages stay static until they are eventually improved by deletion.  Smiley

 
Good point. Well said. We are being rational and working by consensus! go us.
 
They will stagnate and get deleted if we don't get more editors. Sooo.. if  you're reading this and you don't got a wiki acc, PM me an email. I'll make you one, and it will send a random password to your email. If Arimaa keeps getting more popular, we should have a thriving wiki.
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Re: Wiki energy. revival.
« Reply #25 on: Feb 24th, 2013, 12:30pm »
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There definitely doesn't seem to be any reason to argue the point further, though I still think that anything of value that could possibly be in the chat logs could always be presented better than raw chat.
 
I suspect Froody your inability/unwillingness to understand probably stems from your inability to understand why the average person is intimidated, and thus, turned off by chess. People like you and I (and probably many currently here) thrive on challenges.* The average person avoids them.
 
Why?
 
I don't know. But I do know that it happens.  Undecided
 
*Notice the average person in this community, in one way or another, finds their way here because of the computer challenge. This puts the average person in this community on the higher end of the intellectually curious scale. If we want to attract a wider audience, information has to be presented to them in a simpler, and thus, a more presentable manner.
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Re: Wiki energy. revival.
« Reply #26 on: Feb 24th, 2013, 2:44pm »
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on Feb 24th, 2013, 11:53am, froody wrote:
If they can't parse information quickly, they must be retarded. If they see one page of junk and make the assumption that it's all junk, they must be an idiot.
 
They can't not be an idiot and behave in the way you say.

I didn't say that, it doesn't follow from what I said, and this is a waste of time.  Oh, wait, if I let you waste my time, it follows that I am an idiot so...   Cheesy
« Last Edit: Feb 24th, 2013, 2:44pm by Fritzlein » IP Logged

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Re: Wiki energy. revival.
« Reply #27 on: Feb 24th, 2013, 3:08pm »
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on Feb 24th, 2013, 2:44pm, Fritzlein wrote:

I didn't say that, it doesn't follow from what I said, and this is a waste of time.  Oh, wait, if I let you waste my time, it follows that I am an idiot so...   Cheesy

 
TEASING/trollWarning: ahh. The last resort of someone who has lost an argument. 'This is a waste of my time, I can't even be bothered to explain why I'm right. I was happy to spend time when I thought I might win, but now, I resign'. Pro tip: don't use 'pro tip:' unless you're a pro. Especially when you're talking to a genuine pro!
 
Did I win? I won, right? Tell me I won.
 
Quote:
There definitely doesn't seem to be any reason to argue the point further, though I still think that anything of value that could possibly be in the chat logs could always be presented better than raw chat.  

 
Right. Only point would be if you love to argue and you have time to burn! (-:
 
 
Quote:
I suspect Froody your inability/unwillingness to understand probably stems from your inability to understand why the average person is intimidated, and thus, turned off by chess. People like you and I (and probably many currently here) thrive on challenges.* The average person avoids them.

 
Because they're insecure and emotional. Why bother doing anything if you'll never be the best?
 
"Don’t waste your time on jealousy; sometimes you’re ahead, sometimes you’re behind... the goal race is long, and in the end, it’s only with yourself."
 
Froody brand spiritual enlightenment. Who wants to join my new cult?
« Last Edit: Feb 24th, 2013, 3:19pm by froody » IP Logged

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Re: Wiki energy. revival.
« Reply #28 on: Feb 25th, 2013, 7:01pm »
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on Feb 24th, 2013, 3:08pm, froody wrote:
Because they're insecure and emotional. Why bother doing anything if you'll never be the best?

 
This is true. Most people fear making mistakes or the negative social sanctions (or perceived sanctions) that comes with making mistakes more than they have curiosity and a desire for truth and knowledge.
 
But good attempt at making mine (and Fritzlein's) point.  
 Tongue
 
on Feb 24th, 2013, 3:08pm, froody wrote:
Right. Only point would be if you love to argue and you have time to burn! (-:

 
Huh
 
You should practice more. As yet, you have not made a single point to your cause, save for the broad generalization that "More information is always better", which is demonstrably false. If such a statement were always true, the Federal Tax regulations would be a panacea for a knowledge seekers.  Wink
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Re: Wiki energy. revival.
« Reply #29 on: Feb 25th, 2013, 9:10pm »
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on Feb 25th, 2013, 7:01pm, Trick wrote:

 
This is true. Most people fear making mistakes or the negative social sanctions (or perceived sanctions) that comes with making mistakes more than they have curiosity and a desire for truth and knowledge.
 
But good attempt at making mine (and Fritzlein's) point.  
 Tongue

 
ehh? Which point is that?
 
Quote:
You should practice more. As yet, you have not made a single point to your cause, save for the broad generalization that "More information is always better", which is demonstrably false. If such a statement were always true, the Federal Tax regulations would be a panacea for a knowledge seekers.  Wink

 
Practice what? Arimaa or Rhetoric?
 
I thought I explained my argument very clearly.
 
My argument is that more information can never hurt (if you're a responsible, smart informavore). Demonstrate this is false, please.
 
Access to more information is always good. Forcing information down your optical nerve is not good. I don't do that.
 
Depends what you want to know about. I don't care about tax regulations, so I don't read them. If you put a link on the wiki that says 'Tax regulations', Guess what? I won't click on it.
 
The mistake you made is thinking that I think all information is good, and therefore I like reading tax regulations. I did not say that at all.
« Last Edit: Feb 25th, 2013, 9:19pm by froody » IP Logged

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