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Topic: Short notation for Arimaa games and positions (Read 10081 times) |
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omar
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Re: Short notation for Arimaa games and positions
« Reply #30 on: Jan 26th, 2009, 7:43am » |
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Updated the short notation page to get rid of the piece scan and replace it with a square label such as b4. This is possible without confusion if the pieces are specified using capital letters. For example <tt>g 12g Dc2^</tt> mean the gold dog on square c2 moves north. Also in many cases it is possible to specify just the row or column to uniquely identify the piece. For example <tt>g 12g Dc^</tt> may be sufficient if there is only one gold dog on the c column.
Thanks to Karl and Jean for independently suggesting this via email after trying to use the short notation in their books.
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Fritzlein
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Re: Short notation for Arimaa games and positions
« Reply #31 on: Jan 26th, 2009, 11:56am » |
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I must expand on this latest change. Omar has been pressing me to use the short notation in my book, which I was reluctant to do with an untested system where there might be kinks we haven't uncovered. Indeed, as I began to try to use it, I discovered that the disambiguation scheme was a major hassle to use. No matter how you define the board scan, it is a pain to figure out which is the sixth rabbit. If you miscount, you are looking at the fifth or seventh rabbit and thinking something totally wrong about the position.
It makes sense to disambiguate by the column of the piece, as they do in chess on the rare cases where disambiguation is required, but for Arimaa the letters of the columns were colliding with the letters for the silver pieces. To avoid the collision, I actually tried referring to the squares with two number coordinates, e.g. the elephant on square 52 steps north. Unfortunately, the square numbers are easy to confuse with move numbers, and anyway this gives away the advantage of using square names that are familiar to chess players.
The idea of using capital letters for all pieces, both gold and silver, in order to free up lower-case letters for disambiguation, turns out to be the best solution by far. Yes, it takes a second to figure out that in 25g RE<Re<^ the first R is a silver rabbit being pulled, while the second R is a gold rabbit moving voluntarily from the e-file. I found, however, that I got used to the paradigm very quickly.
Once I adjusted to small letters always being disambiguation by column and capital letters always being pieces, I started to love the new notation. It is not just shorter, it is easier to read and easier to write. This is not speculation on my part: I have just finished converting my entire book (by hand) to the new notation. If it wasn't clearly a superior notation, I would never have had the stamina to finish the conversion.
Omar, thank you very much for dragging me into this change. Although I was right, and the new notation was actually flawed in an unexpected way, that was something we would never have found out except by trying to use it. The change to capital letters for both colors of pieces has, I think, pushed the short notation over the hump where it can become the new standard.
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| « Last Edit: Jan 26th, 2009, 11:58am by Fritzlein » |
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Fritzlein
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Re: Short notation for Arimaa games and positions
« Reply #32 on: Jan 26th, 2009, 12:10pm » |
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on Jan 26th, 2009, 7:43am, omar wrote:| g 12g Dc^ may be sufficient if there is only one gold dog on the c column. |
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I still believe that the flexibility of being able to specify a perspective is outweighed by the confusion caused. For my book I have done everything from Gold's perspective, so I omit the initial 'g', and save another character. If using other perspectives catches on, I will obviously conform to standard usage, but I think it is unlikely to catch on unless it is forced on people. Just out of curiosity, Omar, do you intend to rename the squares too, so that a1 for Gold is h8 for Silver? Or do you keep the square names the same and just reverse the arrows? This wasn't an issue before, because we didn't use square names for disambiguation, but now it will matter.
A on a completely different point, I found myself tempted to write 12g D^ instead of 12g Dc^ if there was only one dog that could move north. Is the further abbreviation is a help or a hindrance? I only use it when the step is unambiguous, so specifying a column is a good idea if and only if it makes the notation easier to read. I can imagine that it is easier to read without the 'c', because there is one less thing to pay attention to, and it will be clear from the position which dog is meant. On the other hand, I can imagine that reading the 'c' will be less fuss than checking which dog can move. Time will tell.
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| « Last Edit: Jan 26th, 2009, 12:34pm by Fritzlein » |
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chessandgo
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Re: Short notation for Arimaa games and positions
« Reply #33 on: Jan 27th, 2009, 9:34am » |
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"The number used to uniquely identify the piece can also be omitted if it can be determined from the direction of the steps. For example if only one horse can move east then H> is sufficient."
As I have told Omar in our email conversation, I find the new notation(s) terribly hard to read for a human being. I think the length of the notation is much less important than the speed at which a human can understand the move denoted. When gaining lentgh thanks to an unambiguous step like R> if only one rabbit can go eastwards, one also makes things harder to read for a human, who has to check which of the rabbits is the one that can go eastwards. Oh it's the d3 rabbit, so the move means that the d3 rabbits goes east? Why isn't it better to write rd3w, which basically contains all information that we have to recover ourselves by reading R>??
I'm sorry to be stubborn, but for the moment I would be absolutely sad to have to change the notation in my "book", if it ever gets published. My personal feeling, which is possibly not shared, is that the short notation makes things harder for the reader.
Jean
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Fritzlein
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Re: Short notation for Arimaa games and positions
« Reply #34 on: Jan 27th, 2009, 12:26pm » |
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I'm ambivalent about the case of omitting the disambiguation when there is only one piece of a type that can move a certain direction. My proofreader (Elmo) is urging me to specify the piece location in that case too, so I probably will.
In my book, there wasn't a single case of a rabbit that didn't need to be disambiguated. I always was forced to write Rc^ or R4^, and sometimes even Rc4^ because the rabbit shared a row with one rabbit and shared a column with another. You may ask what the new notation gains if I have to use the same four characters as before; the fact is that it is extremely common for the same piece to move more than once. In one diagram I could write Re5vvvv instead of having to write Re5s Re4s Re3s Re2s. In the old notation, you have to spend a split-second on every step to verify that, yes, it is the same rabbit moving again.
Also a large percentage of moves are done by the elephant and camel, which don't ever need to be disambiguated, so omitting the origin square is easier to read without causing any confusion.
I was even surprised how often there was a double-pull or double-push. Once you get used to the new notation, EH^^* is not only more compact, it is much easier to decipher than Hc4n ed4w Hc5n Hc6x ec4n.
Putting all the arguments aside, though, I strongly believe that nobody should be "forced" to use any particular notation. Everyone should be allowed to use the notation that is most convenient. The weight of popular opinion will enforce a standard well enough. For chess books nobody can force you to write 1.c4 instead of 1. PQB4. In fact, a lot of authors resisted the transition because they thought the descriptive notation was better. Eventually the transition happened because most people liked algebraic notation better, and the people who didn't like it better gave in so that they would be understood by the majority.
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omar
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Re: Short notation for Arimaa games and positions
« Reply #35 on: Jan 27th, 2009, 12:58pm » |
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on Jan 27th, 2009, 9:34am, chessandgo wrote:| "The number used to uniquely identify the piece can also be omitted if it can be determined from the direction of the steps. For example if only one horse can move east then H> is sufficient." |
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You can always specify the piece location if you want. I am just saying that in such situations the author can chose to leave it out if they want. If I didn't say that then authors would be required to specify the piece location even in these situations. I don't know enough right now to know if it should be required or not. So I am leaving this aspects of the notation up to the authors. I think over time we will determine it one way or the other based on usage. We may even decide that if there are many rabbits to specify the location and not specify it if there is just a few.
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omar
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Re: Short notation for Arimaa games and positions
« Reply #36 on: Jan 27th, 2009, 3:11pm » |
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on Jan 26th, 2009, 12:10pm, Fritzlein wrote:
Omar, do you intend to rename the squares too, so that a1 for Gold is h8 for Silver? Or do you keep the square names the same and just reverse the arrows? This wasn't an issue before, because we didn't use square names for disambiguation, but now it will matter. |
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Yes, once the view is specified, then the square a1 is at the bottom left corner. If the view is not specified then it is assumed to be from Gold's side.
I hope authors will use the view that is most natural for the situation. For example if you are presenting "silver to move and win in x" then the preferred view would be from silvers side. If you are providing comments about a game without a bias towards one side or the other (such as the event reports of the WC games) then a side neutral view would be preferred.
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chessandgo
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Re: Short notation for Arimaa games and positions
« Reply #37 on: Jan 28th, 2009, 3:07am » |
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true, Karl, the new notation is better when the same piece moves again, and for M and E. It might be confusing though to write E for both e and E as is the case in at least one of the proposal.
Ok Omar, I just thought you'd try to standardize the notation. Well then, we'll see what turns out to be preferred by most 
Jean
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Fritzlein
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Re: Short notation for Arimaa games and positions
« Reply #38 on: Jan 28th, 2009, 8:33am » |
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Brainstorm: If we label the columns on the board stuvwxyz instead of abcdefgh, then the square letters don't conflict with with any of the piece letters. Then we could still use 'E' for the Gold elephant and 'e' for the Silver elephant.
But in my experience the big problem to solve was the disambiguation problem. The confusion caused by using capital letters for pieces on both sides is much less.
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99of9
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Re: Short notation for Arimaa games and positions
« Reply #39 on: Jan 28th, 2009, 5:44pm » |
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I don't like the silver pieces being written as capitals. It is much easier for the reader to get the gist quickly when the capitalization helps identify the piece (and it uses no extra characters).
I also don't like changing the names of the columns (I think a-h are standard enough that we should resist changing them).
To avoid confusion between pieces and columns, I suggest not dropping the number in the square identification. That way, anything with a number after it is a column.
As you say Karl, the major advantage of this notation is when one piece moves more than once. Therefore it doesn't matter too much if you spend a couple of extra characters giving information about the piece and it's location in the first place:
Ed2^^^^ is nice and short, and is instantly recognizeable even if you don't know the current board state.
I personally am unlikely to ever use the silver perspective, and I think relabelling the squares from that perspective will only confuse people.
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camelback
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Re: Short notation for Arimaa games and positions
« Reply #40 on: Jan 28th, 2009, 7:09pm » |
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I was thinking the same as 99of9 and I completely agree with him.
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chessandgo
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Re: Short notation for Arimaa games and positions
« Reply #41 on: Jan 29th, 2009, 1:00am » |
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agreed with 99of9 and camelback
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Adanac
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Re: Short notation for Arimaa games and positions
« Reply #42 on: Jan 29th, 2009, 4:42am » |
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on Jan 29th, 2009, 1:00am, chessandgo wrote:| agreed with 99of9 and camelback |
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I agree with 99of9, camelback and chessandgo.
I like a system that's convenient and intuitive, but the rules should also be consistent and unambiguous (i.e. always from gold's perspective, no ambiguity between column d and dog, etc.)
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jdb
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Re: Short notation for Arimaa games and positions
« Reply #43 on: Jan 29th, 2009, 6:39am » |
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on Jan 29th, 2009, 4:42am, Adanac wrote:
I agree with 99of9, camelback and chessandgo.
I like a system that's convenient and intuitive, but the rules should also be consistent and unambiguous (i.e. always from gold's perspective, no ambiguity between column d and dog, etc.) |
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I agree.
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omar
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Re: Short notation for Arimaa games and positions
« Reply #44 on: Jan 29th, 2009, 5:28pm » |
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I like the idea of using capital letters for gold and lower case for silver. Although it should be noted that it is not required and can be determined from context in the notation. However in discussions we will still want to use upper and lower case when referring to the pieces quickly, so it would be nice to preserve that in the notation.
But I also like the notation the way it is because it allows me to uniquely identify the piece by using just the column or row. In practice there are lots of times when only a column or row is sufficient to uniquely identify the piece (always for horse, dog, and cat; and usually for rabbits). This is nice not only because it saves a letter, but because it is less effort; both when recording and replay. Also I can easily tell the piece characters apart from the location characters.
I really would suggest people to record the moves on paper next time they play or review a game; then open a plan window and make the moves by looking at only the notation on paper. It's one thing to talk about it in theory and another thing to do it in practice.
I am still undecided about Toby's suggestion and I am going to try it both ways before deciding.
If only we had another ordered set of common characters Karl's suggestion does try to provide this, but I think I will have a harder time finding the columns with this set then I already do with the a-h set. Also the character 'v' will cause confusion with the down direction character; for example Hvv. It is most intuitive for me to find rows and columns using numbers for both. I can much more easily find column 6 than I can column 'f'. However, Karl mentioned that in discussions the squares would look a bit like move numbers; as in "on 23 the E moved to 23". The first is the move number and the second is the square location. It gets harder for something like "I should have captured the H on 23"
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