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Topic: What would you ask an Arimaa Oracle? (Read 10273 times) |
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Arimabuff
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Re: What would you ask an Arimaa Oracle?
« Reply #15 on: Apr 3rd, 2012, 12:49pm » |
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What I would ask an Arimaa Oracle is if, long after we're all dead, say two hundred years from now, Arimaa will still be played and by how many people around the world? (I almost wrote one hundred years but chances are that some of us may still be alive by then.)
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| « Last Edit: Apr 3rd, 2012, 12:51pm by Arimabuff » |
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Arimabuff
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Re: What would you ask an Arimaa Oracle?
« Reply #16 on: Apr 3rd, 2012, 12:59pm » |
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on Apr 3rd, 2012, 12:48pm, Adanac wrote:
I didn't realize that lions attacked elephants until I saw that "Planet Earth" series narrated by David Attenborough.  |
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I think an angry as well as hungry lion could do a lot of damage to an elephant if he manages to ride it rodeo style and plant his enormous fangs as and claws in the elephant's neck. The only way for the elephant to get rid of the lion would be to roll on his back and try to crush it but I don't know if they can do that.
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Fritzlein
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Re: What would you ask an Arimaa Oracle?
« Reply #17 on: Apr 3rd, 2012, 1:32pm » |
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on Apr 3rd, 2012, 12:59pm, Arimabuff wrote:| I think an angry as well as hungry lion could do a lot of damage to an elephant if he manages to ride it rodeo style and plant his enormous fangs as and claws in the elephant's neck. The only way for the elephant to get rid of the lion would be to roll on his back and try to crush it but I don't know if they can do that. |
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We had a discussion about elephant vs. lion before. I stick by my guns that a lion, no matter how hungry/angry, could not take out fully grown elephant. The only reason it would be a draw is that a lion could dodge any elephant charge and run away, but a lion that gets in too close will get smacked down by a very strong trunk. Lion claws are sharp, but elephant hide is thick!
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Adanac
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Re: What would you ask an Arimaa Oracle?
« Reply #18 on: Apr 3rd, 2012, 2:33pm » |
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on Apr 3rd, 2012, 1:32pm, Fritzlein wrote:
We had a discussion about elephant vs. lion before. I stick by my guns that a lion, no matter how hungry/angry, could not take out fully grown elephant. The only reason it would be a draw is that a lion could dodge any elephant charge and run away, but a lion that gets in too close will get smacked down by a very strong trunk. Lion claws are sharp, but elephant hide is thick! |
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According to this article lions attack elephants more often than I would have expected by attacking in packs, mostly against young, isolated elephants, and almost always at night. It ain't easy hunting elephants 
http://johnhawks.net/weblog/reviews/life_history/risk/lion_elephant_pred ation_2006.html
"On only one occasion was a lion injured by an elephant in these hunts. In that case, the elephant collapsed on top of the lion. The resulting injury to the head was therefore recorded as accidental rather than as a result of a counterattack by the elephant." That must have hurt!!
It doesn't really matter though. Weaker pieces can take out stronger pieces in Arimaa so long as the stronger piece is standing on a trap  So lions killing elephants won't invalidate Fritz's new piece hierarchy.
And this is getting waaay off topic but check out "Battle at Kruger" on YouTube for a wild video clip involving lions.
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| « Last Edit: Apr 3rd, 2012, 2:54pm by Adanac » |
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99of9
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Re: What would you ask an Arimaa Oracle?
« Reply #19 on: Apr 3rd, 2012, 7:10pm » |
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There's a reason they're called King of the Jungle... you're supposed to represent them with the chess king.
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Fritzlein
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Re: What would you ask an Arimaa Oracle?
« Reply #20 on: Apr 3rd, 2012, 9:08pm » |
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Thanks for the link, Adanac. The information is interesting, especially the part about lions almost always escaping uninjured, which I wouldn't have expected. But maybe I should have expected it. I remember being awed by a nature documentary about a desert cat taking out a poisonous snake by patiently waiting for an opening for a lighting-quick scratch, followed by more waiting, etc., and by nimbly jumping out of the way whenever the snake would try to strike back. Also I imagine that an elephant could be injured yet recover, whereas an injured lion is as good as dead since it can't hunt, so it would make sense that lions would only attack when they had a low probability of injury.
On the other hand, the article doesn't exactly settle the head-to-head dispute of who gets to push whom around on the Arimaa board, because the fights were always multiple lions against lone elephants, and usually smaller ones at that. And even with many lions against one elephant, the success rate was low if the one elephant was an adult male. "Many attempts to kill adults bulls were made in 1996, when we saw lions attacking elephant bulls almost nightly although only one hunt was successful."
One of my fellow Peace Corps volunteers in Africa once saw what happens when, instead, it is the elephants that work together. She saw a herd of elephants watering at a river when a pride of lions showed up and also wanted to drink. The elephants became agitated and eventually charged en masse. The lions wanted no part of it; they lit out in all directions without even the pretense of resistance. In daylight, at least, the elephants owned the scene.
The King of the Jungle is indeed king when attacking from behind in the dark with advantage in numbers, but...
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| « Last Edit: Apr 3rd, 2012, 9:26pm by Fritzlein » |
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omar
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Re: What would you ask an Arimaa Oracle?
« Reply #21 on: Apr 6th, 2012, 11:42pm » |
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on Apr 3rd, 2012, 9:57am, Fritzlein wrote:
A variant I proposed was to break the tie between the two horses, so instead of the piece strength being 1,1,2,2,2,8, it would be 1,1,1,1,2,2,8. I thought I would call the new level a lion.
elephant > lion > camel > horse > 2 dogs > 2 cats > 8 rabbits.
This can still be played with a chess set by inverting one rook. |
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If you want to stick with the current theme of domesticated mammals, a bull might be better. Although I don't know if it would be stronger or weaker than a horse.
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The_Jeh
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Re: What would you ask an Arimaa Oracle?
« Reply #22 on: Apr 7th, 2012, 12:04am » |
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on Apr 6th, 2012, 11:42pm, omar wrote:
If you want to stick with the current theme of domesticated mammals, a bull might be better. Although I don't know if it would be stronger or weaker than a horse.
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Based on this video (viewer discretion advised), I would have to say a bull. http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=e5c_1225826191. When it comes to battle, having horns and a lot of mass is an advantage. I certainly can't see a way for a horse to win, though it probably could outrun the bull to escape for a draw.
In terms of sheer strength, I would guess a bull would be stronger on average, although for all I know a draught horse could match or exceed it.
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arimaaphile
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Re: What would you ask an Arimaa Oracle?
« Reply #23 on: Apr 7th, 2012, 8:58pm » |
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O, Arimaa Oracle!
I did not come from a far away country to ask you question about moves, pieces, maths, search trees! Tell the future!
Tell me, what will happen to our game once computers start winning humans like in chess, regularly, and most of the time?
Will our Arimaa survive and continue as an independent game leaving behind computer-bound twist/identity? Or will it go down to history as (un)successful experiment whose rules will be taught only to remember what not to do in fight against computers?
Tell me, o Arimaa oracle, what will happen after Arimaa singularity arrives!
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clauchau
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Re: What would you ask an Arimaa Oracle?
« Reply #24 on: Apr 17th, 2012, 9:18am » |
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Nice questions.
I would ask the Oracle some kind of shortest theory = some highly structured science about distinguishing in efficient time between winning moves or board positions and loosing ones, and about evaluating their optimal distance to the end.
There might be no such theory significantly smaller than merely enumerating unrelated individual cases, so I would also ask for the best playing engine using 1KB and 1ms, the best using 10KB and 1ms, the best using 1KB and 10ms, and so on.
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tize
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Re: What would you ask an Arimaa Oracle?
« Reply #25 on: Apr 17th, 2012, 3:43pm » |
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A similair question: How small can you make a "perfect" arimaa bot with the current hardware?
Where I define perfect as given a position where at least one winning move exist then the bot should return a non-empty subset of those moves, and if no winning moves exist then no moves should be returned.
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| « Last Edit: Apr 17th, 2012, 3:44pm by tize » |
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Arimabuff
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Re: What would you ask an Arimaa Oracle?
« Reply #26 on: Apr 19th, 2012, 12:50pm » |
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on Apr 17th, 2012, 3:43pm, tize wrote:A similair question: How small can you make a "perfect" arimaa bot with the current hardware?
Where I define perfect as given a position where at least one winning move exist then the bot should return a non-empty subset of those moves, and if no winning moves exist then no moves should be returned. |
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I guess it depends on your definition of a winning move. Strictly speaking your very first move of the game could be a losing move and you won't know it because your opponent responded with a move that's even worse than yours etc...
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browni3141
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Re: What would you ask an Arimaa Oracle?
« Reply #27 on: Apr 19th, 2012, 2:10pm » |
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A winning move is a move that wins the game for the side to move assuming future best play from both sides. What else would it be?
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Arimabuff
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Re: What would you ask an Arimaa Oracle?
« Reply #28 on: Apr 20th, 2012, 8:23am » |
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on Apr 19th, 2012, 2:10pm, browni3141 wrote:| A winning move is a move that wins the game for the side to move assuming future best play from both sides. What else would it be? |
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What if it wins in 50 plus moves? You'll never know it. That means there's no practical way to discern certain winning moves from the losing ones.
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clyring
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Re: What would you ask an Arimaa Oracle?
« Reply #29 on: Apr 20th, 2012, 6:18pm » |
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No practical way, but if the answers could be obtained practically, there would be no need to ask an oracle.
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