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Topic: Move 10 (Read 5593 times) |
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Simon
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Fritzlein has moved:
9s ed3n ed4w ec4w cg8s
threatening to flip our camel.
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Simon
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Re: Move 10
« Reply #1 on: Apr 15th, 2009, 8:05pm » |
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As a first guess at a move, would there be any problem in just flipping the rabbit as chessandgo thought would be the most likely move 10, and if Fritzlein flips M to b5, just responding with Ef5w hd5w Ee5w ?? ?
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chessandgo
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Re: Move 10
« Reply #2 on: Apr 16th, 2009, 2:54am » |
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hmmmm no, letting silver flip our camel would be a hard blow. We have the Ha6 so a caMel hostage will be extremely hard for silver to achieve, but nonetheless we would have to tie our Elephant to defense on the west, and silver would take profit with his eastern camel against our HD on g and h files.
How about 10g Mb3e Ee5ww Hd5s? Optically it looks really good for gold, very dangerous for the silver horse. For the moment I just see 10s eb4e hd4eee type of answer, after which we're pretty happy to tie both phants to eastern side with something like 11g E to g5 (+ a M step). If silver's phant commits to f3 defense we're extremely happy as our pieces are magnificently placed on the west (either to pull the a7 rabbit to c3 or go for an M+H attack). Silver would also go after our Ha6 and trade Ha6 for hg4. I don't think it's bad for us either, should give us time to at least frame the rh5 on f3.
10s pull the Mc3 moves seems to completely fail. Unless I'm missing something I start to like our position a lot.
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Adanac
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Re: Move 10
« Reply #3 on: Apr 16th, 2009, 4:01am » |
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on Apr 16th, 2009, 2:54am, chessandgo wrote:| How about 10g Mb3e Ee5ww Hd5s? Optically it looks really good for gold, very dangerous for the silver horse. For the moment I just see 10s eb4e hd4eee type of answer, after which we're pretty happy to tie both phants to eastern side with something like 11g E to g5 (+ a M step). If silver's phant commits to f3 defense we're extremely happy as our pieces are magnificently placed on the west (either to pull the a7 rabbit to c3 or go for an M+H attack). Silver would also go after our Ha6 and trade Ha6 for hg4. I don't think it's bad for us either, should give us time to at least frame the rh5 on f3. |
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Yes, this clearly seems like the best move to me too. The ability to freeze the silver horse in the middle of the board close to both our camel and elephant while removing our camel from danger is a great move.
I looked at some wild counter-plans for silver, such as
10s eb4e mg6s mg5s de6s
or
10s eb4e hb6sss
and in both lines we win material in every variation that I tested. It seems Karl will almost certainly do as Jean suggested:
10s Flee east with the horse to g4
11g Move gold elephant to g5
11s Move silver elephant to b6
12g&12s Horse trade
From Fritz's point of view, this seems like the only logical long-term response to this proposed 10g. My biggest concern beyond move 13 is what to do on the west side. Our camel looks like it will be driven to the east on move 13 which makes the silver horse quite powerful on the western half.
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| « Last Edit: Apr 16th, 2009, 5:51am by Adanac » |
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arimaa_master
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Re: Move 10
« Reply #4 on: Apr 16th, 2009, 6:19am » |
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Without looking on suggestions I like
10g Ef5w hd5s Ee5w Mb3e
(Now I see that Chessandgo already suggested the same move).
Ok - it seems that it will be the voice vote.
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| « Last Edit: Apr 16th, 2009, 6:20am by arimaa_master » |
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jdb
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Re: Move 10
« Reply #5 on: Apr 16th, 2009, 7:27am » |
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Quote:
10g Ef5w hd5s Ee5w Mb3e
10s Flee east with the horse to g4
11g Move gold elephant to g5
11s Move silver elephant to b6
12g&12s Horse trade |
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After this line, which seems to be semi-forced, gold has a minor advantage. We will always have this move to fall back on.
Silver's two dogs are exposed for pulling. Is there some tactic we can use to exploit that?
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warren
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Re: Move 10
« Reply #6 on: Apr 16th, 2009, 9:42am » |
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on Apr 16th, 2009, 2:54am, chessandgo wrote:| How about 10g Mb3e Ee5ww Hd5s? |
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Bomb suggests the reply
10s eb4e hd4e ec4e Mc3n
How would we counter that?
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Adanac
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Re: Move 10
« Reply #7 on: Apr 16th, 2009, 6:16pm » |
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on Apr 16th, 2009, 9:42am, warren wrote:
Bomb suggests the reply
10s eb4e hd4e ec4e Mc3n
How would we counter that? |
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That is a pretty tough move to meet. I couldn't find a response that I liked.
There is a completely different plan available to us. If we allow the camel to be flipped to b5 it might still be safe:
10g Ra2n Ra3n Ef5w Ra1n
10s eb4e Mb3n Mb4n ec4w (camel flip to b5)
11g Ra2n Ra4n hd5w Ee5w
11s mg6s mg5s de6s cg7s
12g hb6n Mb5n Mb6s Ha6e (claim b6 square for our horse)
After 12g our pieces are strangely safe from danger and our elephant has time to challenge the silver camel in the east. It's a bit of a crazy line, so I wouldn't recommend it without some serious analysis 
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| « Last Edit: Apr 16th, 2009, 6:17pm by Adanac » |
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warren
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Re: Move 10
« Reply #8 on: Apr 16th, 2009, 8:41pm » |
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What about 10g Mb3w Ee5ww Hd5s ?
Moving our camel against the wall near his elephant is admittedly really weird, but I don't think he can spare the tempos to take it hostage right now. Moving the camel west stops Bomb's nasty 10s.
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Adanac
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Re: Move 10
« Reply #9 on: Apr 17th, 2009, 5:02am » |
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on Apr 16th, 2009, 8:41pm, warren wrote:What about 10g Mb3w Ee5ww Hd5s ?
Moving our camel against the wall near his elephant is admittedly really weird, but I don't think he can spare the tempos to take it hostage right now. Moving the camel west stops Bomb's nasty 10s. |
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It's not really weird, it's a legitimate plan. With a horse on a6 we don't have to worry about a hostage camel being dragged up the a-file.
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chessandgo
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Re: Move 10
« Reply #10 on: Apr 18th, 2009, 2:29am » |
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on Apr 16th, 2009, 9:42am, warren wrote:
Bomb suggests the reply
10s eb4e hd4e ec4e Mc3n
How would we counter that? |
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Ah yes, looks better, Bomb's move generator is better than mine apparently
It's not that frightening though, we can just get our M back, but I guess it gives silver some relief. I'm not fond of 10g Mb3w Ee5ww Hd5s, as our caMel gets out of the action. This said there does not seem to be h to d2 type of moves, so at least the h cannot sneak towards f2.
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chessandgo
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Re: Move 10
« Reply #11 on: Apr 18th, 2009, 6:22am » |
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on Apr 16th, 2009, 6:16pm, Adanac wrote:
That is a pretty tough move to meet. I couldn't find a response that I liked.
There is a completely different plan available to us. If we allow the camel to be flipped to b5 it might still be safe:
10g Ra2n Ra3n Ef5w Ra1n
10s eb4e Mb3n Mb4n ec4w (camel flip to b5)
11g Ra2n Ra4n hd5w Ee5w
11s mg6s mg5s de6s cg7s
12g hb6n Mb5n Mb6s Ha6e (claim b6 square for our horse)
After 12g our pieces are strangely safe from danger and our elephant has time to challenge the silver camel in the east. It's a bit of a crazy line, so I wouldn't recommend it without some serious analysis |
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I'm not sure I'm fond of this plan; if anything silver can simply get his horse back.
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Hannoskaj
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Re: Move 10
« Reply #12 on: Apr 18th, 2009, 8:30am » |
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Another similar possibility is:
Ews hs Ha5
Provides some protection to the camel and the horse is no more target for exchange. But it is more vulnerable here.
Silver answers:
- M to c4 or b5 with e to b4 or c5
- e to c4 with or without Mb4, with or without h to d2 (or mg4 but that looks too early)
- Go after horse ec5 Hb5 + one step
Everything is a little wild, I do not have any firm opinion on that move.
I do not like too much our position after Bomb's answer if allowed.
I find very interesting Adanac's suggestion of advancing rabbits, but then I doubt I would immediately try to tackle the camel. Maybe go after rabbit. And I do not see anything convincing after the simple Ed4 mc4 either.
Warren's suggestion tucks camel out of the way, But if we follow the same variation as with Mc3, that is exchange horses on f3 and c6, the camel hostage threat is again for real.
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Hannoskaj
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Re: Move 10
« Reply #13 on: Apr 18th, 2009, 11:49am » |
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More of the tree after
Ed5 hd4 Ha5
Stars for the lines I think most interesting for Silver. Globally I think Gold is not bad, but I can't say just how not bad.
*11s mb5 (flip)
12g Mc4 hb6c5 looks good enough after some testplay.
11s Ec4 mb4 Mg4
12g Ef4 he4
11s Ec4 Hd2
12g Ha4 Mb3 Ed3
* 11s Ec4 Hg4
12g Eg5 x (Ha4?)
12s Ee3 x... quite a different game
12g Mf3 and play against horse ?
* 11s Ec5 hb5 x (probably not Mg5 since it would allow ef4 Mf5 if Hg4 is played)
12g Ra5 Hb4
12s Ec4 Hg4
13g Eg5 Ha4 ?
13s Ee3 Ha6 ?
11s Ec5 mb5
12g Mb3 Ed4 hd3
12s Ew Ehe x
13g Ra5 Hb4 1-0
11s mc4 (flip)
12g Md4 hd3 Ec4
11s Ec5 mc4
12g hd3 Ed4 Mc4 Ha4 for example
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Adanac
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Re: Move 10
« Reply #14 on: Apr 18th, 2009, 5:58pm » |
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on Apr 18th, 2009, 11:49am, Hannoskaj wrote:More of the tree after
Ed5 hd4 Ha5
Stars for the lines I think most interesting for Silver. Globally I think Gold is not bad, but I can't say just how not bad.
*11s mb5 (flip)
12g Mc4 hb6c5 looks good enough after some testplay.
11s Ec4 mb4 Mg4
12g Ef4 he4
11s Ec4 Hd2
12g Ha4 Mb3 Ed3
* 11s Ec4 Hg4
12g Eg5 x (Ha4?)
12s Ee3 x... quite a different game
12g Mf3 and play against horse ?
* 11s Ec5 hb5 x (probably not Mg5 since it would allow ef4 Mf5 if Hg4 is played)
12g Ra5 Hb4
12s Ec4 Hg4
13g Eg5 Ha4 ?
13s Ee3 Ha6 ?
11s Ec5 mb5
12g Mb3 Ed4 hd3
12s Ew Ehe x
13g Ra5 Hb4 1-0
11s mc4 (flip)
12g Md4 hd3 Ec4
11s Ec5 mc4
12g hd3 Ed4 Mc4 Ha4 for example
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I like your proposal of 10g Ef5w hd5s Ee5w Ha6s. The fact that it works well against the camel flip to b5 (with a horse pull to c5) and the horse fleeing to g4 followed by our elephant to g5 does NOT lead to a horse exchange is terrific. We'll have to examine this in greater depth due to the complexity of some of the positions.
Since Fritzlein will probably want to avoid the most complex variations against The Mob, we should most closely analyze the least tactically messy positions.
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| « Last Edit: Apr 18th, 2009, 5:59pm by Adanac » |
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