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Topic: Move 17 (Read 5814 times) |
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Simon
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Fritzlein has moved:
16s cg5s rf7e rg7s rg6s
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Adanac
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Re: Move 17
« Reply #1 on: Jul 26th, 2009, 7:19am » |
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on Jul 24th, 2009, 7:24pm, Simon wrote:Fritzlein has moved:
16s cg5s rf7e rg7s rg6s |
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My suggestion for 17g is the same as my proposal for 16g:
17g Cb4e Rb1n Rb2n Rb3n
Fritzlein is also playing a slow strategy, so we should have plenty of time for:
18g Dd1wwnn
followed by taking the cat hostage with our dog while also using other pieces to build an attack in the northwest.
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Adanac
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Re: Move 17
« Reply #2 on: Jul 26th, 2009, 7:22am » |
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on Jul 26th, 2009, 7:19am, Adanac wrote:
My suggestion for 17g is the same as my proposal for 16g:
17g Cb4e Rb1n Rb2n Rb3n
Fritzlein is also playing a slow strategy, so we should have plenty of time for:
18g Dd1wwnn
followed by taking the cat hostage with our dog while also using other pieces to build an attack in the northwest. |
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Or, alternatively, we could flip a cat to h3 in order to slow down his plans on the eastern front? I'm just throwing the idea out there, but I'm normally inclined towards the direct attack rather than the prophylactic moves 
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arimaa_master
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Re: Move 17
« Reply #3 on: Jul 27th, 2009, 12:21am » |
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on Jul 26th, 2009, 7:22am, Adanac wrote:
Or, alternatively, we could flip a cat to h3 in order to slow down his plans on the eastern front? I'm just throwing the idea out there, but I'm normally inclined towards the direct attack rather than the prophylactic moves |
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Flip cat to h3 seems fine to me:
17g Eg3w cg4s cg3e Ef3e
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chessandgo
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Re: Move 17
« Reply #4 on: Jul 27th, 2009, 2:03am » |
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I'm not fond of the cat flip. I understand that Fritzl wanted to block our Dh4, to prevent us from sneaking in with D+R, but if we flip the c to h3, I don't think that silver even needs to reestablish the blockade, as our Rh2 is blocked in anyway, and sneaking the Dh4 in towards g6 should not be possible as the hf4 will soon be rotated off the f3 blockade and get ready to capture the advanced Dog. The only way we could profit with it later is if we attack f6 (with Hb6 towards f7 through the 7th rank for instance, but that seems a long shot to me.
Other than that the position is very tough, silver's plan should be rf8 to f3 (or maybe flipping our Re2 to f3??), and next look for an opportunity to go for a c6 capture with the elephant, while we might just achieve a rabbit capture on f3 in the meantime. So far I've not seen anything thrilling for us.
I wonder whether there is a quicker way to get the Dd1 into play than through the b-file (through the c-file for instance). It depends whether we intend it to go to b3 or to attack c6. I think we would need it to attack c6, as our caMel should stay around c3 to be mess with the he3 as soon as silver's elephant leaves the center.
So rather than Greg's plan we might also want to consider the Dd1w Mc3w Rc2w Dc1nnn (Mb3e Rb2e?) plan. One problem is that with the caMel one extra step away from e3 silver's elephant is a bit more free to go try a c6 capture, the specifics look very complicated (which they will be anyway, even with the M on c3). The other problem is that it mmight be harder to get a proper hostage this way, I'm not sure exactly.
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| « Last Edit: Jul 27th, 2009, 2:04am by chessandgo » |
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jdb
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Re: Move 17
« Reply #5 on: Jul 27th, 2009, 5:33pm » |
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I've been looking at the position for a while.
Fritz on his next move can play the disturbing,
17s rg5w rf5w re5s ed4s
I wonder how this move would work out:
17g Mc3e he3n Md3e Me3e
It looks a little weird, but it forces silver to bring his elephant to defend f3. The position is very unusual after that, and I am not sure what the proper follow up would be.
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chessandgo
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Re: Move 17
« Reply #6 on: Jul 28th, 2009, 6:21am » |
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on Jul 27th, 2009, 5:33pm, jdb wrote:I've been looking at the position for a while.
Fritz on his next move can play the disturbing,
17s rg5w rf5w re5s ed4s
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Could you elaborate why you find this move disturbing? Indeed Fritzl can move his e to d3 if wants to, but I'd say leaving it on d4 seems more dangerous for us as it's closer to c6, and I don't understand why bring the rg5 to e4. To my eyes the rg5 blocks our Dh4, and an advancing rabbit for silver would rather go to f3 rather than on e4. What am I missing about this move?
on Jul 27th, 2009, 5:33pm, jdb wrote:
I wonder how this move would work out:
17g Mc3e he3n Md3e Me3e
It looks a little weird, but it forces silver to bring his elephant to defend f3. The position is very unusual after that, and I am not sure what the proper follow up would be.
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I remember this move being proposed for last move. I think it was a viable alternative as the caMel would have ended up on g4, but now that g4 is blockaded our caMel is going to end up blockaded inside the south-eastern corner when silver completes the swarm around f3.
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jdb
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Re: Move 17
« Reply #7 on: Jul 28th, 2009, 1:00pm » |
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I was hoping for something like
17g Mc3e he3n Md3e Me3e
17s ed4s ed3e de6s de5e
18g cb5e Hb6s cc5s Hb5e
And now silver has to either give up the cat or allow gold's camel to sit on f4.
It seems like silver wants to defend the f3 trap without using his elephant. This is just a line of play that forces the elephant to stay around the f3 trap.
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Simon
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Re: Move 17
« Reply #8 on: Jul 28th, 2009, 4:11pm » |
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Quote:17g Mc3e he3n Md3e Me3e
17s ed4s ed3e de6s de5e
18g cb5e Hb6s cc5s Hb5e |
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I think a far more likely 17s would be ed4s ed3e he4w hd4s.
Fritzlein doesn't have to block the camel from f4 because if we move the camel to f4 he can just grab it with the elephant and eventually capture it in f6. Is this not correct?
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chessandgo
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Re: Move 17
« Reply #9 on: Jul 29th, 2009, 3:46am » |
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yeah, I agree with Simon that if we get Mf4 then silver is likely to be able to push it to f5 quickly (he will defend f3 with his e indeed and cover c3 with a horse).
For instance
17g Mc3e he3n Md3e Me3e
17s ed4s ed3e rf8s he4w
We can't M to f4, and silver will quickly be able to put pieces on f5+e4, and in the long run likely be able to rotate the phant out of a huge center blockade. This does not look promising at all to me.
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jdb
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Re: Move 17
« Reply #10 on: Jul 29th, 2009, 5:11am » |
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on Jul 28th, 2009, 4:11pm, Simon wrote:
I think a far more likely 17s would be ed4s ed3e he4w hd4s.
Fritzlein doesn't have to block the camel from f4 because if we move the camel to f4 he can just grab it with the elephant and eventually capture it in f6. Is this not correct? |
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Good point.
I also tried moving the cat north to d3, but it was pretty much the same result.
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RonWeasley
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Re: Move 17
« Reply #11 on: Jul 30th, 2009, 4:09am » |
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I'm looking at 17g Mc3e he3n Md3e Hf2n.
Continuing:
17s ed4s he4w Me3n ed3e
18g Hb6n rc7n Hb7e Hc7e
18s Me4n ee3n hd4s hd3e
19g dd6w dc6x Hd7s de6e df6x Hd6e
or
18s rc8s rf8s Me4n ee3n
19g Hd7e rf7n He7e Hf3w
Tactics are sharp and there may be a crushing silver move I don't see. If silver chooses not to go after the camel, gold moves the f3 horse to e3 and we are stable again.
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jdb
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Re: Move 17
« Reply #12 on: Jul 30th, 2009, 5:44am » |
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on Jul 30th, 2009, 4:09am, RonWeasley wrote:I'm looking at 17g Mc3e he3n Md3e Hf2n.
Continuing:
17s ed4s he4w Me3n ed3e
18g Hb6n rc7n Hb7e Hc7e
18s Me4n ee3n hd4s hd3e
19g dd6w dc6x Hd7s de6e df6x Hd6e
or
18s rc8s rf8s Me4n ee3n
19g Hd7e rf7n He7e Hf3w
Tactics are sharp and there may be a crushing silver move I don't see. If silver chooses not to go after the camel, gold moves the f3 horse to e3 and we are stable again. |
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I let clueless take a look at things. The 17s you gave is what clueless wants to play. It doesn't see your 18g. It could not find a crushing move for silver on 18s (after your 18g). So this move is worth a closer look.
I'll let clueless run on 18s today and see what it comes up with.
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Simon
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Re: Move 17
« Reply #13 on: Jul 30th, 2009, 4:35pm » |
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I like it, (unless there's a good counter), it looks like it gets us out of the current strategic quagmire. However,while the tactics are sharp on our side (that brilliant double dog threat) they are much less sharp on the other side. For example, our camel will likely get stuck cut off from reinforcements except for the horse, so if Fritzlein can safely extract the elephant with the camel still attached to it from f3, he can eventually hostage one of the horse and camel with only the other to protect it, and then capture one or both. This will take awhile, so I wouldn't trust clueless to find it.
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jdb
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Re: Move 17
« Reply #14 on: Jul 30th, 2009, 4:51pm » |
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17g Mc3e he3n Md3e Hf2n.
17s ed4s he4w Me3n ed3e
18g Hb6n rc7n Hb7e Hc7e
Clueless thought about:
D:13 02:36:11 -3605 rg5w rh6w dd6s de6e Hd7s Hf3s Hd6e He6s cb5n dd5w dc5s hd4s
D:13 04:29:29 -1777 rg5w dd6s de6n hd4w Hd7s Hf3s Hd6e He6s rf8s hc4n Cb4e
D:13 05:09:20 277 rg5w rf8s dd6s hd4s Hf3s Hd7s dd5e Hd6s hf4s rf5s de5e hd3n Cd2n
D:13 07:40:16 453 rg5w rf8s dd6s hd4w Hd7s Hf3s dd5w Hd6s hc4e Cb4e ra7e rb7e Hd5e
D:13 08:58:48 464 rg5w cg4n dd6s hd4w Hd7s de6e Hd6e He6s cg5n cb5w hc4n Cb4e Rc2n
In a position like this all clueless will find are short term tactical shots. It will have no idea about the correct strategy.
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