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Topic: Move 18 (Read 4341 times) |
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Simon
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17s rb6s ra8e dd6w rf8s
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Simon
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Re: Move 18
« Reply #1 on: Aug 28th, 2009, 7:39am » |
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My first impression is that Fritzlein has cut off the interesting moves we could make, so we might as well make a dull one, like
18g D->b3
to put the dog closer to the action.
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Adanac
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Re: Move 18
« Reply #2 on: Aug 28th, 2009, 10:02am » |
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on Aug 28th, 2009, 7:39am, Simon wrote:My first impression is that Fritzlein has cut off the interesting moves we could make, so we might as well make a dull one, like
18g D->b3
to put the dog closer to the action. |
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Yes, and if everyone agrees with 18g Dog to b3 then we can re-build time reserves with a quick vote.
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chessandgo
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Re: Move 18
« Reply #3 on: Aug 28th, 2009, 10:48am » |
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D to b3 has my vote as well
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Soter
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Re: Move 18
« Reply #4 on: Aug 29th, 2009, 12:31am » |
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D -> b3, supported.
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Hannoskaj
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Re: Move 18
« Reply #5 on: Aug 29th, 2009, 12:50am » |
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OK for Db3.
I have a slight worry on what happens if our cat is flipped to d5, but I guess we have enough play notably against his cat.
By the way, now Fritz has only one rabbit on last line, so there are interesting goal attack themes.
We may relatively soon play Ha6 rb7b6 ra7b7 Ha7. If we also have a Ra6, things get really interesting. If we imagine defences with dc8 to try and block the horse, then Ha8 rb7a7 rb8b7 Hb8 will tie at least the two dogs to defence.
There are many "if"s, but we should keep that somewhere in mind.
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jdb
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Re: Move 18
« Reply #6 on: Aug 29th, 2009, 4:53am » |
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I support D->b3
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chessandgo
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Re: Move 18
« Reply #7 on: Aug 29th, 2009, 6:35am » |
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on Aug 29th, 2009, 12:50am, Hannoskaj wrote:OK for Db3.
I have a slight worry on what happens if our cat is flipped to d5, but I guess we have enough play notably against his cat.
By the way, now Fritz has only one rabbit on last line, so there are interesting goal attack themes.
We may relatively soon play Ha6 rb7b6 ra7b7 Ha7. If we also have a Ra6, things get really interesting. If we imagine defences with dc8 to try and block the horse, then Ha8 rb7a7 rb8b7 Hb8 will tie at least the two dogs to defence. |
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I think your Cc4 - > d5 worry is legitimate (and Cc4 -> e4 looks almost worse), but if we didn't want that to happen we should not have played this 17g in the first place. We can still play Rb4w Cc4w but I fear the huge loss of time we suffer is really terrible for our position.
At least it seems we should not lose material, maybe
18g Dd1w Dc1w Db1n Db2n
18s ed4s Cc4e Cd4n ed3n
19g Rb4w Db3n Db4s cb5s
19s de6s de5e Cd5e ed4w
20g Mc3e he3n Md3e Cd2n
or
18g Dd1w Dc1w Db1n Db2n
18s ed4s Cc4e Cd4n ed3n
19g Rb4w Db3n Db4s cb5s
19s de6s de5e Cd5e ed4s
20g Hb6s Hb5e Hc5e Hd5n
or
18g Dd1w Dc1w Db1n Db2n
18s ed4s Cc4e Cd4e ed3n
19g Rb4w Db3n Db4s cb5s
19s ed4s hf4s Ce4e de6s
20g Hb6s Hb5e Hc5e (Hd5n)
hold for us. But it's true silver can exchange cats if he wants to, which is not great as we hoped to have a nice cat hostage. The saves require our Horse to go to the middle (e6/d6), I hope it's fine and silver's elephant can't really go and capture it without losing stuff on f3.
hmmm, anyway this Cc4 is a real concern  Should we lose two (or probably a bit more) steps to get it out of the way? Sounds dangerous to lose so much time is such a position.
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Soter
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Re: Move 18
« Reply #8 on: Aug 29th, 2009, 9:05am » |
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Quote:| hmmm, anyway this Cc4 is a real concern Should we lose two (or probably a bit more) steps to get it out of the way? Sounds dangerous to lose so much time is such a position. |
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This Cc4 frigthens me a bit as well, but I checked your proposed lines and - if you trust my modest Arimaa skills - there seems to be little danger... gold phant can't be busy flipping our cat, protecting his pair of horses from our camel and attacking our lone horse all at the same time. Maybe we haven't reached the most wonderful of all Arimaa positions but it doesn't (imho) look tragic either. So I think I still support D -> b3.
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| « Last Edit: Aug 29th, 2009, 9:05am by Soter » |
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Adanac
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Re: Move 18
« Reply #9 on: Aug 29th, 2009, 1:56pm » |
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When we flipped the cat from b7 to b5 with our 16th move, we wanted the option of pulling a silver rabbit from a7 to a6 in the future. We could use that option now to prevent Fritzlein from using 4 steps to flip our cat.
18g Hb6w Ha6e ra7s Dd1w
It prevents any cat threats on 18s and it is a step towards an eventual plan of Horse on c7 and Dog on b6. My biggest problem with this move is that our dog can only take 1 step on 18g and is still far away from the action.
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chessandgo
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Re: Move 18
« Reply #10 on: Aug 30th, 2009, 5:00am » |
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on Aug 29th, 2009, 1:56pm, Adanac wrote:When we flipped the cat from b7 to b5 with our 16th move, we wanted the option of pulling a silver rabbit from a7 to a6 in the future. We could use that option now to prevent Fritzlein from using 4 steps to flip our cat.
18g Hb6w Ha6e ra7s Dd1w
It prevents any cat threats on 18s and it is a step towards an eventual plan of Horse on c7 and Dog on b6. My biggest problem with this move is that our dog can only take 1 step on 18g and is still far away from the action. |
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yeah, maybe
18g Hb6w Ha6e ra7s Dd1w
18s dc6s ed4s Cc4e de6w
puts us in trouble, for instance:
19g Dc1w Db1n Db2n Rb4w (not enough)
19s Cd4n ed3n Cd5e dd6s
So maybe, if silver can't capture our Cat after D->b3, he at least can trade cats with something like:
18g Dd1w Dc1w Db1n Db2n
18s ed4s Cc4e Cd4e ed3n
19g Rb4w Ra4n cb5s Hb6s
19s hf4s Ce4e Cf4n hf3n
20g cb4e Db3n Mc3w cc4s cc3x
20s de6e df6w Cf5n Cf6x
we're not in a bad shape perhaps, but well, no cat hostage compared to what we hoped for.
So I'm still for D->b3, but it's not as easy a decision as expected.
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| « Last Edit: Aug 30th, 2009, 5:01am by chessandgo » |
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Adanac
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Re: Move 18
« Reply #11 on: Aug 30th, 2009, 6:42am » |
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on Aug 30th, 2009, 5:00am, chessandgo wrote:So maybe, if silver can't capture our Cat after D->b3, he at least can trade cats with something like:
18g Dd1w Dc1w Db1n Db2n
18s ed4s Cc4e Cd4e ed3n
19g Rb4w Ra4n cb5s Hb6s
19s hf4s Ce4e Cf4n hf3n
20g cb4e Db3n Mc3w cc4s cc3x
20s de6e df6w Cf5n Cf6x
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Fritz doesn't have to hurry his cat capture so much though:
18g Dd1w Dc1w Db1n Db2n
18s ed4s Cc4e Cd4e ed3n
19g Rb4w Ra4n cb5s Hb6s
19s hf4s Ce4e ed4s de6w
I was imaging a scenario where our horse reaches c7, the silver elephant is tied to the d3/d4 squares and our cat can be kept alive by the horse (which can move back and forth along the 7th rank) while our dog begins its slow journey up the b-file:
18g Hb6w Ha6e ra7s Dd1w
18s dc6s ed4s Cc4e de6w
19g rb7w Hb6n Re1w Dc1w
19s Cd4e ed3n ed4s cb5n
20g Db1n Db2n rc7s Hb7e
20s hf4s Ce4e dd6e rc6e
21g Hc7e Rb4w Db3n Db4n
21s dc5n cb6n dc6w cb7e
22g rd6s Hd7s Db5e Ra4n
Is this too optimistic? Over-optimism often gets me into trouble in this game 
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| « Last Edit: Aug 30th, 2009, 6:44am by Adanac » |
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chessandgo
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Re: Move 18
« Reply #12 on: Aug 30th, 2009, 7:57am » |
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yes it's interesting, we can also try this. Silver can simply answer
18g Hb6w Ha6e ra7s Dd1w
18s de6w rb7w rc7w dc6n
reestablishing the blockade on b7, after which we've somehow gained a step with Dd1w (but maybe silver is happy to have his 2 dogs on the west, I dunno). It's true that if silver lets us break through b7 and pulls the cat into the center, our Horse is kind of happier to go help it through the second rank and not through the center. If we have to push the rc7 after getting Hb7 I think we should push it north, not south as in your variation.
This H->c7 plan makes us lose the cat hostage, but well, if we can't hope for better than a cat exchange anyway, it's fine. So yeah, I like your move Greg.
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Hannoskaj
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Re: Move 18
« Reply #13 on: Aug 30th, 2009, 10:24am » |
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Indeed, this looks optimistic (though I like much the wrecking of rabbit structure on the left).
My intuitive 19s would be establishing the cat fork
19s cd4n Ed3n Hd6w cd5n
We may defend with
20g Db1nn rc7w Hb7w
but it looks really hard to keep the cat for long, especially with d7 rabbit in the way. We could also push it south and hope for some play if Fritz takes cat for rabbit.
20g Db1nn rc7s Hb7w
20s Dog takes
21g Mc3 pushes dc5 Rb4e
Finally we may break the fork with
20g rc7s Hb7ww Cd6s
but it looks hard to defend both cat and rabbit.
(Ex. 20s Cb5n rb4n Ra6s Rc6e)
On the other hand, I am also less and less confident on the simple Db3. I really don't like the cat chase.
Now, if we want to tuck the cat away, the new idea is really trying to work with our advanced rabbits. To make way for the dog, the cat has also to leave b4, so that its natural case would be a4 to make sure the a5 rabbit can move if needed.
Meanwhile Silver's plan seems to consist in rotating a horse out.
18g Rb4w Cc4w Dd1ww (I am not afraid of ed2)
18s De6s Rf7ss Ed3 (fastest way to rotate horse out, but leaves rabbit in front at the end)
19g Db1nn Ra4n Cb4w
19s Hf4e Rf5s Rg5w Rh5w
20g Dh4n rg5s Dh5w Hf2n
While scrutinizing lines, I've seen that in fact the c6 dog is on a very disagreeable square, and really should stay there. It makes much more difficult an approach by our camel.
For rotating the horse out while keeping completely the lock, the two dogs are needed.
18s De5ne Rf7w Ed4s
19g Db1nn Ra4n Cb4w
19s Re7nn Dc6ww (Dc6wn would make the following 20g much more clear-cut)
20g Mc3nn Rc2nn
with a very rich and dynamic position.
I think that's playable.
Anyhow, right now, I'd rather be Silver in that game.
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Adanac
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Re: Move 18
« Reply #14 on: Aug 30th, 2009, 6:23pm » |
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on Aug 30th, 2009, 7:57am, chessandgo wrote:yes it's interesting, we can also try this. Silver can simply answer
18g Hb6w Ha6e ra7s Dd1w
18s de6w rb7w rc7w dc6n
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Here, I'd prefer to play
19g Cc4n Hb6e dc7n Hc6n
The silver cat can now retreat to b6 but our dog has a very strong future on the b-file.
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