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Topic: 2015 Move 5 (Read 3967 times) |
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harvestsnow
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2015 Move 5
« on: Aug 22nd, 2015, 3:09am » |
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4s was played a few hours ago:
4s rg8s dd7s hh6s rb8s
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chessandgo
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Re: 2015 Move 5
« Reply #1 on: Aug 22nd, 2015, 5:06am » |
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We could play 5g Ee5w Ed5w x x to try to get a Hb6. If we do not play Rh2n, silve can dive into g3 with his camel: 5s mg6s mg5s Hg3e mg4s. If we have to move the Elephant to f4, we've lost time.
5g Ee5w Ed5w De2n Rh2n or 5g Ee5w Ed5w Rh2n Rh1n at least minimize the damage of m->g3. The former guarantees that you can use all 4 steps to pull and replace next move, the latter might let silver try 5s mg6s mg5s Hg3w mg4s to force us to use one step defending f3.
Silver can also start with 5s hb6e rb7s rb6s hc6w to prevent the pull and replace on b6. We have a lot of of options though (pulling the rabbit to a5, but silver should be helped by the exchange; diving into b7 with the Horse; handling the rb5 towards c3 ...).
I don't think flipping the caMel to d5 on 5s is a problem, we can always move to c6:
5g Ee5w Ed5w Rh2n Rh1n
5s ed4e Md3n Md4n ee4w
6g dd6e Md5n Md6w de6w
If we don't like E->c5, I fear we might have to move our caMel west soon. Maybe something like 5g Md3w Mc3w Rh2n Rh1n?
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| « Last Edit: Aug 22nd, 2015, 5:07am by chessandgo » |
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Algorias
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Re: 2015 Move 5
« Reply #2 on: Aug 22nd, 2015, 7:48am » |
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on Aug 22nd, 2015, 5:06am, chessandgo wrote:| I don't think flipping the caMel to d5 on 5s is a problem, we can always move to c6 |
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I agree that camel to d5 is not a problem (the 4th step of your 6g elegantly stops the elephant from further messing with the camel), but what about sharp flipping the camel to e4? Doesn't this mean that we need to spend 3 steps defending, e.g.
5g Ee5w Ed5w Rh2n De2n
5s ed4w Md3n Md4e ec4e
6g Me4e Mf4s De3s Rg1n
or perhaps
6g Me4e Mf4e Mg4e x?
This means silver gets to attack f3 faster than we can attack c6. Am I missing something obvious in this line?
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PerkofBR
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Re: 2015 Move 5
« Reply #3 on: Aug 24th, 2015, 2:11pm » |
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I was thinking in:
5g Ee5w Ed5w Md3w Mc3w
That way we force silver either to defend c6 from our EMH attack, or to set his own EMH attack at f3, but in either case the a6 horse gives us the advantage.
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SilverMitt
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Re: 2015 Move 5
« Reply #4 on: Aug 24th, 2015, 8:56pm » |
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Given sharp's rabbit steps, we are now essentially even on time, e.g., after 5g Mb3 De3 g2, we have 2 additional attacking steps with the Ha6 vs. Hh5, and aside from that, the only differences are in the rabbits on a1/b1 vs. e8/g7.
With the straightforward 5g Mb3 h3 h2 already mentioned by c&g, we keep the silver horse out of h3 while having our own already on a6. I think this would give us a slight advantage at this point. I don't think moving our elephant away from the silver camel is better than that, but perhaps we can wait to move our camel with 5g De3 h3 h2 g2.
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Hippo
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Re: 2015 Move 5
« Reply #5 on: Aug 25th, 2015, 4:53am » |
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The pull and replace b6 requires 4 step when we start with Ec5, so there would be no step remaining for defense in that case.
What is wrong with Eb5 instead? With one defending step? (Probably camel flip would be problem with Eb5 so Mc3?)
It creates another threat ... to flip the horse near our camel.
I have not studied it deeper ... are we fine after
mg3 Hh3, hb5 Hb6 Ec5 Dd3?
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| « Last Edit: Aug 25th, 2015, 7:33am by Hippo » |
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ikalyoncu
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Re: 2015 Move 5
« Reply #6 on: Aug 25th, 2015, 4:58am » |
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on Aug 22nd, 2015, 5:06am, chessandgo wrote:
5g Ee5w Ed5w De2n Rh2n or 5g Ee5w Ed5w Rh2n Rh1n at least minimize the damage of m->g3. The former guarantees that you can use all 4 steps to pull and replace next move, the latter might let silver try 5s mg6s mg5s Hg3w mg4s to force us to use one step defending f3.
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I wonder if silver can try 5s mg6sss Hg3s as a response to the former 5g, after which it's not clear to me if we can use all four steps to pull and replace:
5g Ee5w Ed5w De2n Rh2n
5s mg6s mg5s Hg3s mg4s
6g Ec5w Eb5e hb6s Ha6e
6s ed4e De3s ee4s de7s
7g Ec5s Ec4e Ed4e Ee4e
7s hh5s Rh3s hh4s xxx
In this final position I feel silver achieved more than we did, but I'm not sure.
Finally, in general, I think we should be doing something with either our elephant or camel (maybe both) on 5g. I don't fancy moves that don't relocate at least one of these pieces.
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browni3141
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Re: 2015 Move 5
« Reply #7 on: Aug 26th, 2015, 12:16pm » |
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After 5g e5ww h2n h1n I would be wary of silver trying to make this a rabbit pulling game with a move like 5s g6ww h5s d4w, after which the pull and replace is dubious because of 6s d6n e6ww e7s where silver won't get a horse hostage, but gold's attack is shut down and silver has a rabbit pull in the resulting quiet position. Instead of the pull and replace I wouldn't want to pull a rabbit when we are starting the race from behind.
Right now my favorite move is some variant of 5g h2n h1n d3w. We have the advantage of Ha6 which silver can not quickly match. He will have to pull a rabbit. It is okay to abandon the idea that we want camel flexibility because h2n h1n prevents the silver horse's advance. We won't need our camel to defend.
I have been involved in a few games of this nature where I get Ha6 with Rh3 Rh2 and attack while the opponent must rabbit pull. I like the resulting positions for the attacker generally, but it's a close game depending on the circumstances. I think we have an advantage but it is quite tiny.
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| « Last Edit: Aug 26th, 2015, 12:16pm by browni3141 » |
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Hufflepup
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Re: 2015 Move 5
« Reply #8 on: Aug 27th, 2015, 3:11am » |
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Quote:| I agree that camel to d5 is not a problem (the 4th step of your 6g elegantly stops the elephant from further messing with the camel), but what about sharp flipping the camel to e4? Doesn't this mean that we need to spend 3 steps defending, e.g. |
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I'm concerned about this possibility as well. If we don't make a choice of what to do with the camel soon I suspect Sharp will force it on us.
I'm thinking Md3w Mc3w would allow us to threaten to pull and replace on b6 with the camel in the future, leaving our elephant freeer to threaten any silver advance on f3.
Maybe Md3w Mc3w Rh2n Rh1n?
Md3w Mc3w Ra2n De2n would be another possibility, shoring up f3, and bringing a rabbit forward to support an attack on c6. This would mean silver would be able to get a horse to h3 one turn earlier, but I'm not sure if this would make up for avoiding a rabbit pull.
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chessandgo
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Re: 2015 Move 5
« Reply #9 on: Aug 27th, 2015, 3:48am » |
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on Aug 25th, 2015, 4:58am, ikalyoncu wrote:
I wonder if silver can try 5s mg6sss Hg3s as a response to the former 5g, after which it's not clear to me if we can use all four steps to pull and replace:
5g Ee5w Ed5w De2n Rh2n
5s mg6s mg5s Hg3s mg4s
6g Ec5w Eb5e hb6s Ha6e
6s ed4e De3s ee4s de7s
7g Ec5s Ec4e Ed4e Ee4e
7s hh5s Rh3s hh4s xxx
In this final position I feel silver achieved more than we did, but I'm not sure. |
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Silver would be commited to f3 fr a few more moves, so something like M->c5 with the idea of threatening a capture in two moves looks reasonable. We'd need to analyze it more to see if silver can hold on to f3 without the elephant when we threaten capture.
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chessandgo
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Re: 2015 Move 5
« Reply #10 on: Aug 27th, 2015, 3:54am » |
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on Aug 25th, 2015, 4:58am, ikalyoncu wrote:| Finally, in general, I think we should be doing something with either our elephant or camel (maybe both) on 5g. I don't fancy moves that don't relocate at least one of these pieces. |
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on Aug 26th, 2015, 12:16pm, browni3141 wrote:| Right now my favorite move is some variant of 5g h2n h1n d3w. We won't need our camel to defend. |
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I agree with the general feeling that our caMel wants to go west, especially with Ec5 leaving so many opportunities for silver. I'm sold on the "we have both h3 and a6" argument. So what do we want to play as a 4th step after 5g h2n h1n d3w? Mc3w as proposed earlier? Avoiding a caMel pull to c4 might be convenient.
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ikalyoncu
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Re: 2015 Move 5
« Reply #11 on: Aug 27th, 2015, 4:27am » |
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on Aug 27th, 2015, 3:54am, chessandgo wrote:
I agree with the general feeling that our caMel wants to go west, especially with Ec5 leaving so many opportunities for silver. I'm sold on the "we have both h3 and a6" argument. So what do we want to play as a 4th step after 5g h2n h1n d3w? Mc3w as proposed earlier? Avoiding a caMel pull to c4 might be convenient.
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I don't mind silver spending three steps for pulling the camel to c4. It helps us develop in the west. So De2n maybe an alternative fourth step, as proposed earlier. I have something like this in mind:
5g Md3w Rh2n Rh1n De2n
5s ed4w ec4e Mc3n hh5s
6g Dd2n Cc2n Rc1n Mc4w
or
6g Dd2n Dd3w Mc4w Dc3w
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Hippo
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Re: 2015 Move 5
« Reply #12 on: Aug 27th, 2015, 6:57am » |
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Please refute my Eb5 Mc3.
It seems to me it does not give silver enough time to attack f3. Seems nobody else likes it, but please argue.
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chessandgo
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Re: 2015 Move 5
« Reply #13 on: Aug 27th, 2015, 9:13am » |
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on Aug 25th, 2015, 4:53am, Hippo wrote:The pull and replace b6 requires 4 step when we start with Ec5, so there would be no step remaining for defense in that case.
What is wrong with Eb5 instead? With one defending step? (Probably camel flip would be problem with Eb5 so Mc3?)
It creates another threat ... to flip the horse near our camel.
I have not studied it deeper ... are we fine after
mg3 Hh3, hb5 Hb6 Ec5 Dd3?
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Maybe 6s h->f3. Also maybe 5s mf4 Hg4? I don't see a refutation, just a lot of possibilities for silver.
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SilverMitt
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Re: 2015 Move 5
« Reply #14 on: Aug 27th, 2015, 12:30pm » |
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on Aug 27th, 2015, 6:57am, Hippo wrote:Please refute my Eb5 Mc3.
It seems to me it does not give silver enough time to attack f3. Seems nobody else likes it, but please argue. |
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I think I wouldn't like this after even a simple 5s Ec5 Mg4 response. Our elephant is blocked along the 5th rank and we can forget about pull-and-replace; meanwhile, the silver camel is free. If we flip the b6 horse on 6g, silver can, at the very least, flip the g3 horse in response.
I am more or less in agreement with the idea of committing our camel west in tandem with the h3/h2 steps, but let me note again that we are not obliged to move it even to c3, particularly if we play the De3 step (I previously suggested g2 as the 4th step).
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