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Topic: Delay for spectators (Read 3961 times) |
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Nombril
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Delay for spectators
« on: Jun 24th, 2010, 5:41pm » |
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This is a summary from a different thread... I thought this might be a better place to continue this discussion. Here is the suggestion:
on Jun 20th, 2010, 4:10pm, ocmiente wrote:| I figured that if the spectators could only view a game after a 5 minute delay or something, that might be enough to get around this problem - but I also figure that someone has already recommended that and there's a reason why that won't work... |
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Implementation (already done, thanks Omar!):
on Jun 21st, 2010, 11:31am, omar wrote:| Thinking about this a bit more I guess if I just throw out the most recent two move in the move list for spectators, that would be easiest way to implement it and work regardless of the time controls for the game. |
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One concern, phrased a few different ways:
on Jun 21st, 2010, 4:41pm, FireBorn wrote:My only concern with the move-delay is it ruins the timing of the game, and thus moves that would have warranted deep analysis/commentary might be passed quickly.
Maybe a solution would be to have the moves displayed in real time with a delay but pause the display of new moves if showing a move would violate the move-delay rule.
I think this would end up with the game being delayed by the amount of time it took to make the longest move. |
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on Jun 24th, 2010, 4:18pm, FireBorn wrote:| Does anyone else have a problem with the pacing of the game being screwed up by a move-delay? Like, what if a move that took a player 2 minutes went by quickly because his next move took 15 seconds. To an observer, the 2 minute move would take 15 seconds, wouldn't it? |
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Personally, I think this is the best "quick" fix. For longer term consideration, I'm wondering what other on-line games that have more money riding on the outcome do for security. (For example, preventing someone from using a computer to calculate odds and/or count cards in on-line poker?)
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knarl
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Re: Delay for spectators
« Reply #1 on: Jun 24th, 2010, 7:26pm » |
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So... with postal games, will the delay mean that the postal mixer results will be delayed by about 4 days, and possibly even months, since 4 ply could take months? Will players be able to comment the games right away?
Or will the delay disappear once the game ends? That would be weird because to an observer, the last 4 ply would be instantaneous.
At other speeds, I just assume players will have to wait a few minutes to comment games and be diciplined enough not to spoil the result for any observers watching their game?
Cheers,
knarl.
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omar
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Re: Delay for spectators
« Reply #2 on: Jun 24th, 2010, 8:45pm » |
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I was able to get the delay implemented today.
For event games that are rated the spectators will see the game delayed by 2 turns (or 4 ply). So if the game is currently at 12g the spectators will see the game being at 10g. When a game ends the delay stops and all moves are immediately shown. This may cause the game window to appear as it stopped updating, but you have to hit the 'Show' button to see the last few moves when the game ends.
As FireBorn mentioned, the strange thing of doing it this way is that the timers displayed are for the current move and not the delayed move. So if a player actually used 1 minute on 10g and 30 seconds on 12g, to the spectators it will appear as if move 10g was made in 30 seconds. The good thing about this is that if a player is about to lose on time, the spectators will know.
As Nombril mentioned this was the easiest quick fix. It did not require any changes in the game clients and only changes on the serve.
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| « Last Edit: Jun 24th, 2010, 8:51pm by omar » |
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Fritzlein
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Re: Delay for spectators
« Reply #3 on: Jun 24th, 2010, 8:54pm » |
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I don't have a problem with the moves appearing to the spectators spaced differently than they were spaced for the players. I have already noticed whenever I am commentating a game that the players don't take longer when I have more to say about a position and don't move more quickly when I have less to say. The commentator has some leeway to backtrack and talk about what happened in the past, but mostly he has to just swallow whatever he wanted to say and talk about the live position. I doubt this will feel very different.
I'm happy that the current clocks will display, so that we will still have the drama of seeing whenever a near-timeout occurs.
For postal games, it makes sense for the display to be delayed by four days if that how long four ply is taking. I've had several awkward moments in chat with people who wanted to discuss ongoing postal games, ignoring that it might give an unfair advantage to one or the other of the players involved. If the displayed position is two moves old, one can comment relatively freely on the stale position. That's a big plus.
I'm glad that after a game is over, the final moves are viewable instantaneously and the players are able to comment immediately. No harm can accrue from spectators talking about the game after it is over. The "end rush", or whatever you want to call it, will take some getting used to, particularly when the end was not expected, but it won't be an entirely new experience because bot games have always ended in a big rush when both bots see forced goal. I am somewhat used to it from that context. Sometimes when one player has a big advantage, not having to endure the waiting of the final two moves will be a positive bonus, because finishing off a win when there is no chance of losing is the most boring part of the game in my book, and scarcely worthy of commentary anyway.
Thanks, Omar, for getting this fix in place so fast. I am now itching to commentate some games in AWL Round 6 just to see how it feels.
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| « Last Edit: Jun 24th, 2010, 8:57pm by Fritzlein » |
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Janzert
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Re: Delay for spectators
« Reply #4 on: Jun 24th, 2010, 11:19pm » |
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heh, just went to check OpFor's postal games and thought I was going crazy 'cause I was sure I had seen more moves played already.
I'm rather surprised to see such a strong reaction from the community after one incident. Don't all the chess and go servers out there have the same problem? Not sure I'll like the delay but I'll probably get used to it.
Janzert
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| « Last Edit: Jun 24th, 2010, 11:25pm by Janzert » |
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rbarreira
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Re: Delay for spectators
« Reply #5 on: Jun 24th, 2010, 11:31pm » |
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on Jun 24th, 2010, 11:19pm, Janzert wrote:heh, just went to check OpFor's postal games and thought I was going crazy 'cause I was sure I had seen more moves played already.
I'm rather surprised to see such a strong reaction from the community after one incident. Don't all the chess and go servers out there have the same problem? Not sure I'll like the delay but I'll probably get used to it.
Janzert |
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One big difference is that I don't think there any world-champion or $10,000 contests in online chess. But for Arimaa, all the important playing is done online.
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Fritzlein
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Re: Delay for spectators
« Reply #6 on: Jun 25th, 2010, 1:14am » |
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on Jun 24th, 2010, 11:19pm, Janzert wrote:| Don't all the chess and go servers out there have the same problem? |
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I don't think I have ever heard live commentary of an on-line chess game. Of course, I have heard live on-line commentary of a face-to-face chess game, but in that case there is no question of the players benefiting from the commentary. Chess servers spend a lot of time worrying about who is getting computer assistance; maybe some day it will be an equal issue for Arimaa servers.
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megajester
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Re: Delay for spectators
« Reply #7 on: Jun 25th, 2010, 2:43am » |
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Thanks a lot Omar.
Although Omar's fix will be good for now, I would still recommend delaying each move by a set time. Fritz is right that in general there's not a whole lot of difference in time used between moves, but this changes when the players get low on time. Personally think it would contribute to the atmosphere if we knew we were seeing the moves at the exact same speed they were played. Like taping a sports game and watching it later, we can still feel the players' emotion and excitement even though it was 5 minutes ago for them. In the past, commentators could often be heard saying "so-and-so's gone into a deep think", for example. With the present fix, we lose this dimension of the commentary somewhat.
If we had a fixed time delay, I think we would forget about it quite quickly because it wouldn't feel any different to the way it was before. But with the present solution we will always be reminded of the delay when complex moves update quickly and relatively obvious moves take ages to come through, and when we get to the end and suddenly "bang!" the last moves update.
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| « Last Edit: Jun 25th, 2010, 2:45am by megajester » |
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rbarreira
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Re: Delay for spectators
« Reply #8 on: Jun 25th, 2010, 3:45am » |
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If it isn't too hard, maybe one day Omar will implement the delay feature based on move time rather than move number.
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FireBorn
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Re: Delay for spectators
« Reply #9 on: Jun 25th, 2010, 10:15am » |
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Thanks for implementing this, Omar. And good points, Fritzlein. It doesn't seem too bad the way you explain it, but we'll have to test it out to see. I still think my hybrid solution is best, but if Omar likes it he can implement it at his own leisure since I know it would be a lot of work and the current delay probably works fine for now.
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Hippo
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Re: Delay for spectators
« Reply #10 on: Jun 25th, 2010, 4:36pm » |
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I don't agree the last 2 turns shown at once would be always beneficial. In my game with novacat we were fighting to the last move so 2 turns before the end spectators would be prepared for us to come to the chatroom, but they would be absolutely unsure how the game ended. So the post game chat in the game window would give enough time to spectators ... and may be it would be better if the moves would be delayed to "average turn time".
I would like the "growing constant delay". We should be late at least maximal encountered length of 2+2 turns. And after the game is finished, the replay could continue with this delay.
I understand that this would need some programming, but it seems to me be the most natural. (Delay time could be displayed as well). It would be nice if the players will be informed when the game ended for spectators not to visit the chatroom prematurely  .
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omar
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Re: Delay for spectators
« Reply #11 on: Jun 26th, 2010, 7:22am » |
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Janzert, sorry about the impact of this on viewing your bot's postal games.
I am interested to see how this works out. Maybe we can arrange an event game next weekend with commentary to try it out. Karl, would you be able to give commentary sometime next weekend.
megajester, with a time delay the position the spectators see could catch up with the current position the players have. But it would depend on the time delay we chose and it could be chosen to be long enough that this would not likely happen. This would be a bit tricky to implement though.
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Fritzlein
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Re: Delay for spectators
« Reply #12 on: Jun 26th, 2010, 4:34pm » |
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on Jun 26th, 2010, 7:22am, omar wrote:| I am interested to see how this works out. Maybe we can arrange an event game next weekend with commentary to try it out. Karl, would you be able to give commentary sometime next weekend. |
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Yes, I'm available and eager. I hope some game is scheduled at a good time for me. This is the sort of thing where we all have intuitions about how it will work out, but we really need to experience it to know. Spectating might be lame now, or it might be exactly as fun as before, or anywhere in between. We just have to try it to see.
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Fritzlein
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Re: Delay for spectators
« Reply #13 on: Jun 29th, 2010, 9:58pm » |
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The first two AWL Round 6 games are Thursday night for me, and I have Thursday night ultimate so I can't make it. Perhaps someone else will volunteer to commentate in TeamSpeak? In any event I can make it for woh vs. Korhil Saturday morning, so that will be my first chance to check out the spectator delay.
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knarl
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Re: Delay for spectators
« Reply #14 on: Jun 30th, 2010, 4:47am » |
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I just spectated (that's not a word, but I'm using it) a game between BlueScreenError and bot_Bomb2005Blitz to check out the delay.
Towards the end, it went all wacky. The move (green highlight on the clock) changed back and forth a few times without any pieces moving so I thought it must have finished and reverted the delay, but then it continued a few moves, then played the music and told me who won, then I could show the final moves =S.
Cheers,
knarl.
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