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   Author  Topic: Essay by Christian Freeling on inventing games  (Read 489950 times)
christianF
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Re: Essay by Christian Freeling on inventing games
« Reply #180 on: Jun 7th, 2010, 2:00pm »

on Jun 1st, 2010, 10:36am, MarkSteere wrote:
I understand, you're frustrated over the Hanniball debacle.  Christian, I was just having a little fun.

 
According to the current stats, HanniBall has been played more often the last 30 days (although it hasn't even been there for 30 days), than Oust, HexOust, Mad Bishops, Tanbo, Atoll, Cephalopod and Dipole taken together. If that's a debacle, the question is for whom Roll Eyes .
 
Just having a little fun Wink .
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MarkSteere
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Re: Essay by Christian Freeling on inventing games
« Reply #181 on: Jun 7th, 2010, 4:15pm »

on Jun 7th, 2010, 2:00pm, christianF wrote:

According to the current stats, HanniBall has been played more often the last 30 days (although it hasn't even been there for 30 days), than Oust, HexOust, Mad Bishops, Tanbo, Atoll, Cephalopod and Dipole taken together.

Well, of course.  Smiley  It's a brand new game by the famous Christian Freeling - one which uber programmer Arty put a lot of work into, developed complex animation for, and ultimately salvaged.  It's not a dowdy, combinatorial game like Mad Bishops.  I almost wanted to play Hanniball.  
 
Hex Oust had it's own little chart topping stats for its first couple of months at iggc.  Have I caught you misleading the readership with statistics, Christian?  Cheesy
 
You don't pose the faintest challenge to me, Christian, and you never will.  We have two completely different design approaches.  You intuit depth of play and clarity and so on with, by your own admission (on bgg), no particular regard for originality.
 
"I never invented to be commercial or even original."
 
I, in polar opposition, strive for original architecture, with little or no regard for quality of play.  It's a minor miracle that any of my games have taken root, considering my unconventional design approach.  I'll take what little popularity I can get.  But it's going to take a lot more than Hanniball before you even get close to doing what I do.
 
I hope your games are popular, Christian, since that's your goal.  If all your games are outstanding, then I commend you for that.  It seemed like one of two of them didn't find their way onto any of the favorite CF games lists though.
 
I designed all but two of my games in the last seven years.   That's a lot different from half a century.  Let's keep some perspective on the timeline, shall we?  And in the statistical analyses.
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MarkSteere
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Re: Essay by Christian Freeling on inventing games
« Reply #182 on: Jun 7th, 2010, 5:16pm »

I'll bet you even money that Hex Oust beat all Christian Freeling games combined during its first couple of months on iggc.  So what?  Smiley
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Re: Essay by Christian Freeling on inventing games
« Reply #183 on: Jun 8th, 2010, 4:02am »

on Jun 7th, 2010, 4:15pm, MarkSteere wrote:
But it's going to take a lot more than Hanniball before you even get close to doing what I do.
I know, with you up there being original and me down here having fun, no chance I'd say
 Wink
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christianF
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Re: Essay by Christian Freeling on inventing games
« Reply #184 on: Jun 8th, 2010, 6:33am »

on Jun 7th, 2010, 5:16pm, MarkSteere wrote:
I'll bet you even money that Hex Oust beat all Christian Freeling games combined during its first couple of months on iggc.  So what?  Smiley
That, if true, would at least be fully justified: I consider Oust a stroke of genius, while you consider HanniBall a debacle Wink .
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MarkSteere
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Re: Essay by Christian Freeling on inventing games
« Reply #185 on: Jun 8th, 2010, 7:43am »

on Jun 8th, 2010, 4:02am, christianF wrote:

I know, with you up there being original and me down here having fun, no chance I'd say

I couldn't have put it better myself.
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MarkSteere
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Re: Essay by Christian Freeling on inventing games
« Reply #186 on: Jun 8th, 2010, 7:54am »

on Jun 8th, 2010, 6:33am, christianF wrote:

you consider HanniBall a debacle.

No I don't.  I think it had a glitch, what I call an infinity problem, that in this case took the form of ball hoarding or some such.
 
I think you created a debacle when you kept triumphantly announcing your final solution, and two hours later it's broken again.  Save the champagne until you get through a day without revisions.
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Re: Essay by Christian Freeling on inventing games
« Reply #187 on: Jun 8th, 2010, 8:00am »

We have a tradition here in the Arimaa community of mutual respect and sportsmanly behaviour. I, for one, believe that this kind of ugly posturing, putting other people's work down just to massage one's own ego, has no place here. Especially not from some gatecrashing troller who has not played even a single game of Arimaa.
 
I'm sick to the back teeth of this and I say it stops now. Who's with me?
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Re: Essay by Christian Freeling on inventing games
« Reply #188 on: Jun 8th, 2010, 8:30am »

on Jun 8th, 2010, 8:00am, megajester wrote:
I'm sick to the back teeth of this

I'm sorry.  Did I get something on your back teeth?  lol
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Re: Essay by Christian Freeling on inventing games
« Reply #189 on: Jun 8th, 2010, 8:58am »

Don't look now, but the topic is "Essay by Christian Freeling on inventing games."  I'd say that gives Christian Freeling some latitude in determining the content of the topic.  If he's chosen to banter with a fellow designer of at least equal stature, I don't see that as entirely inappropriate.  Nobody's forcing you to read this particular topic about and guided by Christian Freeling (even though this happens to be the only active topic in the Arimaa forum).
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Re: Essay by Christian Freeling on inventing games
« Reply #190 on: Jun 8th, 2010, 10:15am »

on Jun 8th, 2010, 7:54am, MarkSteere wrote:
I think you created a debacle when you kept triumphantly announcing your final solution, and two hours later it's broken again.  Save the champagne until you get through a day without revisions.

There may be some misunderstanding here about the content of the thread. I made a claim about being able to predict some games' behaviour, others doubted that on very reasonable grounds.
 
Then the 'inventing process' actually happened when my mind wrapped itself around the idea of a Jeson Mor for grown ups. HanniBall came together in a couple of nights, between going to bed and going to sleep.
 
I came out into the open with it immediately, to show the process 'live'. Initial parameters like boardsize and number of moves per turn were changed quite quickly, something I could have done before coming into the open, but that was counter to the idea. The idea was to put myself in a vulnarable position regarding my claims.
 
Obstruction was spotted by the viewers, and Greg Magne defined it in the way the algorithms still check it. It immediately became a 'red card' offence.
JDB had a stroke of genius when he suggested a generalization of the 'shots at the keeper' rule.
Apart from that, the game was still very much the same as the one I perceived.
 
Then a year went by in which nothing much happened, pending playtesting.
 
Playtesting proved me wrong. That was the vunarability implied in the process. It demanded I do everything 'live'.
 
So I stumbled over the 'catenaccio' strategy, first with a suggested change that was in no way related to the problem, then with a solution that was made redundant by a simpler solution with a similar effect, provided by Arty.
 
So I don't think I made the process a debacle, I was following the rules of complete transparancy, even if the light didn't shine favorably on my claim.
 
Meanwhile HanniBall is great fun and I'm very satisfied with its behaviour. You see Mark, I do take games seriously. I don't always take inventors quite that seriously, including myself  Smiley .
 
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Re: Essay by Christian Freeling on inventing games
« Reply #191 on: Jun 8th, 2010, 10:20am »

on Jun 8th, 2010, 9:38am, Arimabuff wrote:

That one is beyond the pale,

Speaking of beyond the "pale", Arimabuff...  Cheesy
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Re: Essay by Christian Freeling on inventing games
« Reply #192 on: Jun 8th, 2010, 10:28am »

on Jun 8th, 2010, 8:00am, megajester wrote:
We have a tradition here in the Arimaa community of mutual respect and sportsmanly behaviour. I, for one, believe that this kind of ugly posturing, putting other people's work down just to massage one's own ego, has no place here. Especially not from some gatecrashing troller who has not played even a single game of Arimaa.
 
I'm sick to the back teeth of this and I say it stops now. Who's with me?

Agreed. We don't need the bad vibes. And you're giving abstract game inventors a bad name.
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Re: Essay by Christian Freeling on inventing games
« Reply #193 on: Jun 8th, 2010, 10:56am »

on Jun 8th, 2010, 10:15am, christianF wrote:

I made a claim about being able to predict some games' behaviour, ...
 
The idea was to put myself in a vulnarable position regarding my claims....
 
the game was still very much the same as the one I perceived...
 
I was following the rules of complete transparancy, even if the light didn't shine favorably on my claim.

Christian, you're a very highly regarded designer with a gift for making games people like.  Nobody expects more from you than that.  
 
I believe you.  You can intuit characteristics of the as yet unplayed game.  You can tame the spirit.  But as some have pointed out, one can never foresee everything, as was clearly borne out with Hanniball.
 
You seem to have enshrined yourself in a house of claims.
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Re: Essay by Christian Freeling on inventing games
« Reply #194 on: Jun 8th, 2010, 12:33pm »

Mark, thank you for following up your needling of Christian with positive remarks as well.  A generally negative tone in posting won't win you any friends, but it also won't get you banned from the Arimaa forum.  What will result in banning is vulgarity and personal attacks, such as you have routinely employed in other forums, including your inexcusable abuse against one of our own (ocmiente) in rec.games.abstract, when you invited us to discuss Arimaa there rather than here.  If we were more proactive, that exchange alone would be sufficient grounds for banning you from arimaa.com.
 
I have deleted your vulgar post in this thread.  With contributing members of the Arimaa community, we tend to be very patient, but that doesn't extend to uncivil non-Arimaa debates which have migrated here.  Therefore, this is your last warning.  Please keep it clean while you are on arimaa.com, or go elsewhere.
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