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   Author  Topic: Essay by Christian Freeling on inventing games  (Read 489936 times)
MarkSteere
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Re: Essay by Christian Freeling on inventing games
« Reply #195 on: Jun 8th, 2010, 1:56pm »

Ok  lol  
 
Well, thanks for being a good sport about it.  With ocmiente, who's fault was that?  I didn't invite anyone to mislead the group.  You don't go to rec.games.abstract and try to perpetrate a hoax.
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FireBorn
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Re: Essay by Christian Freeling on inventing games
« Reply #196 on: Jun 8th, 2010, 2:35pm »

I couldn't see Thomas' posts, but from what you quoted it didn't sound like he was purposefully attempting to mislead. He seemed to believe what he was saying, and just because you don't agree with him doesn't make him a stupid liar.
 
I don't think anyone cares enough to perpetuate a hoax about the "pureness" of an underground board game that can be easily refuted just by looking at the rules, especially if he's not even the inventor.
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ocmiente
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Re: Essay by Christian Freeling on inventing games
« Reply #197 on: Jun 8th, 2010, 3:18pm »

Fireborn,  
 
After my exchange with Mark on rec.games.abstract I felt that leaving my posts up there wasn't worth it.  I figured that the way usenet works, the posts wouldn't be deleted everywhere, but that I would try. They are gone from google's site.  However, you can google 'Arimaa Grandmaster Society' and find the entire thread.  
 
If anyone other than Mark can see that I lied, or tried to perpetuate a hoax, I'd appreciate the reality check.  I still don't see it.  
 
If you're interested about the Arimaa forum quote mark sites,  Fritzlein's entire response can be read in response #11 of this same forum topic thread.  
 
I am sorry to everyone here that I was foolish enough to even respond to Mark's post on rec.abstract.games.  If I had known then what I know now, I would not have done it.  Mark's behavior appears to be fairly consistent, and well documented on rec.games.abstract and other forums.
 
<EDIT> just updated the hyperlinks to look neater... learn something new every day  Smiley
« Last Edit: Jun 8th, 2010, 5:06pm by ocmiente » IP Logged

Fritzlein
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Re: Essay by Christian Freeling on inventing games
« Reply #198 on: Jun 8th, 2010, 4:26pm »

on Jun 8th, 2010, 3:18pm, ocmiente wrote:
I am sorry to everyone here that I was foolish enough to even respond to Mark's post on rec.abstract.games.

I did my best to address the substance of Arimaa's alleged drawishness in this post.  I have no wish to be insulted and abused, so I didn't cross-post to the rec.games.abstract thread.  Everyone, including Mark, is welcome to disagree with the substance of my findings, but hopefully in a civil fashion.  I suggest we move any discussion of the role of Arimaa's repetition rule in preventing draws to the linked Arimaa forum thread, so that it doesn't further hijack this Hanniball thread.
 
Unfortunately, the discussion of anti-social behavior must take place wherever the behavior arises, and thus will inevitably hijack threads.  Hopefully the need will not arise in this thread any more, so that Christian can get back to reporting on his progress with playtesting and fixing Hanniball, and discussing whatever that implies with respect to his claims that kicked off the whole discussion.  Wink
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Re: Essay by Christian Freeling on inventing games
« Reply #199 on: Jun 8th, 2010, 5:46pm »

on Jun 8th, 2010, 2:35pm, FireBorn wrote:

I couldn't see Thomas' posts, but from what you quoted it didn't sound like he was purposefully attempting to mislead.

I was willing to give Thomas the benefit of the doubt and let the whole thing slide. But then he came back to brag that yes, of course he knew what superko was and that superko was why the draw column was zeroed out for the past couple years at the Arimaa server.  It was clearly a tee hee/gotcha/well I was technically telling the truth kind of thing.
 
The problem was that Thomas had been essentially saying that Arimaa's natural resistance to draws is so great that there hasn't been a draw in years on the Arimaa server.  I was grudgingly going to take him at his word until someone turned up Arimaa's superko inconvenient truth.  Then, after he got busted, Thomas was saying, Oh well, in my opinion, draws would only be at about 1%, blah blah blah blah blah.  That's why Thomas is here, and no longer at rec.games.abstract.  Now he's running around trying to delete posts from usenet.  Consciousness of guilt?
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Fritzlein
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Re: Essay by Christian Freeling on inventing games
« Reply #200 on: Jun 8th, 2010, 7:21pm »

Mark, your latest post is based on an unstated assumption that if Thomas was wrong, then all your cursing and insults were justified.  Compared to your egregious assumption, any errors that he might or might not have made are not even worth discussing.  I simply won't debate on that basis.
 
If you can't discourse courteously, eventually no one will want to discourse with you at all.  The only reason I am engaging you even to the extent that I am is on the hope that you might desire to behave differently in the future than you have in the past.  If you still feel, to the contrary, that the way you treated Thomas was perfectly justifiable, it is only a matter of time before your sense of justice leads you into behavior that the Arimaa community won't tolerate.
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Re: Essay by Christian Freeling on inventing games
« Reply #201 on: Jun 8th, 2010, 10:34pm »

on Jun 8th, 2010, 10:20am, MarkSteere wrote:

Speaking of beyond the "pale", Arimabuff...  Cheesy

Lame...
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christianF
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Re: Essay by Christian Freeling on inventing games
« Reply #202 on: Jun 9th, 2010, 4:02am »

on Jun 8th, 2010, 4:26pm, Fritzlein wrote:
... so that Christian can get back to reporting on his progress with playtesting and fixing Hanniball, and discussing whatever that implies with respect to his claims that kicked off the whole discussion.  Wink

 
Preliminary evaluation of the games I've played and seen has shown no need to fix anything further. Arty's solution to the problem he showed in the first place is simple and effective (rules).
 
I don't expect HanniBall to harbor anymore 'unspirited' behaviour - it now feels as what I 'saw' and tried to accomodate.
 
What it implies? Well, hopefully I didn't do too bad. The core is still very much the game that solidified last year.
I missed catenaccio as a strategy, that was bad.
I suggested a fix that was hardly related to the problem, that was very bad.
 
But all in all we're talking one major discrepancy between what I perceived and what now is HanniBall. And for a totally new kind of interaction of four kinds of pieces based on only two kinds of moves, that wasn't too bad I think.
 
It has resulted a game that hopefully gives the kind of intelligent fun that many people appreciate, and I'd like to thank you all for participating in what has been a very interesting journey Smiley .
 
P.S. I think Arty's solution of the problem of catenaccio strategy, a strategy he formulated and empoyed in the first place, is so valuable to HanniBall that I've offered him a shared copyright of the game.
« Last Edit: Jun 9th, 2010, 5:04am by christianF » IP Logged
MarkSteere
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Re: Essay by Christian Freeling on inventing games
« Reply #203 on: Jun 9th, 2010, 6:12am »

on Jun 8th, 2010, 7:21pm, Fritzlein wrote:

Mark, your latest post is based on an unstated assumption that if Thomas was wrong, then all your cursing and insults were justified.

There's no moderator at rec.games.abstract, and no end to ignorant buffoons forwarding retarded agendas there.  Cursing and insults are the only available tools to eject them.
 
The only thing you have to fear in rec.games.abstract is your own stupidity, which understandably can be terrifying for some.  The asinine statements you make are the ammunition that's used to bounce you out of the group.  Along comes Thomas, dragging a family sized sack of grenades.  "Hi guys.  Where do I put this?"
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MarkSteere
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Re: Essay by Christian Freeling on inventing games
« Reply #204 on: Jun 9th, 2010, 6:32am »

on Jun 9th, 2010, 4:02am, christianF wrote:

I don't expect HanniBall to harbor anymore 'unspirited' behaviour - it now feels as what I 'saw' and tried to accomodate.

Oh Lord.  14 pages of spirits and claims.  Enough already.
 
on Jun 9th, 2010, 4:02am, christianF wrote:

P.S. I think Arty's solution of the problem... is so valuable to HanniBall that I've offered him a shared copyright of the game.

And rightfully so.  Arty dragged your cindered butt out of the coals.  End of story.  No more visions of grandeur.
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Fritzlein
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Re: Essay by Christian Freeling on inventing games
« Reply #205 on: Jun 9th, 2010, 7:28am »

on Jun 9th, 2010, 6:12am, MarkSteere wrote:
There's no moderator at rec.games.abstract, and no end to ignorant buffoons forwarding retarded agendas there.  Cursing and insults are the only available tools to eject them.

Is it a mystery how your hostility has swelled the ranks of people who don't want to converse with you to include many, many more than the "ignorant buffoons" you have specifically targeted?  If I choose not to respond to your next expression of general contempt, will you interpret it as yet another victory in your campaign to silence the unworthy?  Do you not expect your attitude to eventually alienate everyone, leaving you talking only to yourself?  If, ultimately, you are banned from the arimaa.com, will it only prove in your mind how far superior you are to the paltry community that would not tolerate your behavior?
 
I would be happy if you would adhere to some community norms, including generally respectful behavior, but I am not sure what core values exist within you that I can appeal to.  You justify your abuse of Thomas as being necessary to stop him from talking.  What is it that you treasure apart from winning your arguments and silencing your opponents?  If nothing, then there is no reason for you to behave differently in the future than you have in the past, and I don't see what I could do to influence the inevitable outcome.
« Last Edit: Jun 9th, 2010, 7:39am by Fritzlein » IP Logged

christianF
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Re: Essay by Christian Freeling on inventing games
« Reply #206 on: Jun 9th, 2010, 7:41am »

on Jun 9th, 2010, 6:32am, MarkSteere wrote:
No more visions of grandeur.

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Re: Essay by Christian Freeling on inventing games
« Reply #207 on: Jun 9th, 2010, 8:08am »

on Jun 9th, 2010, 4:02am, christianF wrote:

 
P.S. I think Arty's solution of the problem of catenaccio strategy, a strategy he formulated and empoyed in the first place, is so valuable to HanniBall that I've offered him a shared copyright of the game.

Smiley Thank you!
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Re: Essay by Christian Freeling on inventing games
« Reply #208 on: Jun 9th, 2010, 8:29am »

on Jun 9th, 2010, 6:12am, MarkSteere wrote:

Cursing and insults are the only available tools to eject them.

No, they are not. Cursing and insults are _always_ the indicator of inability to prove something in a conventional way. Of course, the one, you are trying to prove, can be really dumb (I am talking abstractedly now, not referring to anyone) but it doesn't change the reason for "cursing and insults" - inability to prove. No matter whether you are not smart enough to find another way to explain something or your "opponent" is too dumb to understand you. There is no real "OR" there but both statements are true.
 
So by "cursing and insults" you don't show the correctness of your words but show your inability that I mentioned above. Other people are not that stupid, Mark. They can read comments from both sides and make their own conclusions. If you think your opponent makes silly points you can just express your point of view and then ignore him. So other people will be able to compare your wit with your opponent's foolishness. Instead you give them the right to compare your opponent's foolishness with your exaggerated aggressiveness multiplied by your inability to explain something (that reduces your wit in their eyes). This comparison is not in your favor. And will never be.
« Last Edit: Jun 9th, 2010, 8:30am by Arty » IP Logged

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Re: Essay by Christian Freeling on inventing games
« Reply #209 on: Jun 9th, 2010, 10:18am »

on Jun 9th, 2010, 8:29am, Arty wrote:

Cursing and insults are _always_ the indicator of inability to prove something in a conventional way.

Arty, you're putting me in a tough spot.  I never like to argue with my favorite programmer.  Smiley
 
But... I won't deny you a fair argument.  You just dedicated two paragraphs to arguing against something I didn't say.  I never said that cursing and insults are the only way to prove someone wrong.  Obviously not.  
 
What I said is that cursing and insults are the only way to eject someone from an unmoderated forum.  Banning me from the Arimaa forum wouldn't prove anything either.  But if I became totally obnoxious, that would be the moderator's only recourse to restore civility to the group.  What's my recourse when somebody becomes totally obnoxious in rec.games.abstract?  I don't have a button to push like the Arimaa forum moderator - unless it's your button.
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