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   Author  Topic: Essay by Christian Freeling on inventing games  (Read 489954 times)
Arty
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Re: Essay by Christian Freeling on inventing games
« Reply #210 on: Jun 9th, 2010, 10:32am »

on Jun 9th, 2010, 10:18am, MarkSteere wrote:

Arty, you're putting me in a tough spot. I never like to argue with my favorite programmer. Smiley

Arguing and falling out are two different things Wink
 
Quote:
But... I won't deny you a fair argument. You just dedicated two paragraphs to arguing against something I didn't say. I never said that cursing and insults are the only way to prove someone wrong. Obviously not.

 
I didn't argue, Mark. I just said that "cursing and insults" are the _result_ of something, not a _tool_ for something. The latter sounds more like an excuse. I also said what other "tool" you can use to stop someone's stupidity:
 
Quote:
If you think your opponent makes silly points you can just express your point of view and then ignore him. So other people will be able to compare your wit with your opponent's foolishness.

 
This tool works way better than "cursing and insults", which show your own weakness. You've been lucky to meet people who don't answer your "cursing and insults" with a similar thing. What would you do in such case without the "moderator" button? Continue with endless attempts to make your "cursing and insults" stronger than the opponent ones? Your "tool" won't work in this case. Which means that your tool is not that good as you may think of it Smiley
« Last Edit: Jun 9th, 2010, 11:06am by Arty » IP Logged

Only those who attempt the absurd will achieve the impossible.. (Escher)
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Re: Essay by Christian Freeling on inventing games
« Reply #211 on: Jun 9th, 2010, 11:34am »

All this discussion of cursing and insults is a little out of place here in the Arimaa forum.  Rec.games.abstract uses a wild West protocol, one that was in place long before I got there.
 
I like rec.games.abstract simply because of its name and because it's a place to announce my games.  Not much else even goes on there beyond that.  Not directing this at Thomas, but the occasional nitwit wanders into the group, and has to be bounced.  When it's closing time at the bar and you just need five more minutes to go back to your table and finish your drink, no.  Out.  Now.  
 
Bouncing isn't elegant or justifiable or rational or any of these lovely things that we all aspire to be.  It's just, you've abundantly demonstrated that you're intellectually retarded and that there's a much more appropriate place for you to be - the BoardGameGeek abstract games fourm.  Leave now.  No further discussion required.
 
To me that's how it works at rec.games.abstract.  If I'm doing it wrong, then I'm doing it wrong.
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christianF
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Re: Essay by Christian Freeling on inventing games
« Reply #212 on: Jun 9th, 2010, 12:28pm »

Of course I'm curious what the interested viewers make of HanniBall. The unusual capturing tactics, not to mention the strategical use of the 'ricochet', require some getting used to (something even I can predict Smiley ).
 
The fastest signposts can be found in games against any of the slightly more seasoned players, some of whom have a nice bag of tricks already, to baffle a beginner Shocked .
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MarkSteere
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Re: Essay by Christian Freeling on inventing games
« Reply #213 on: Jun 9th, 2010, 3:32pm »

on Jun 9th, 2010, 12:28pm, christianF wrote:

Of course I'm curious what the interested viewers make of HanniBall.

zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
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Fritzlein
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Re: Essay by Christian Freeling on inventing games
« Reply #214 on: Jun 9th, 2010, 9:30pm »

on Jun 9th, 2010, 11:34am, MarkSteere wrote:
All this discussion of cursing and insults is a little out of place here in the Arimaa forum.

I rejoice in your implied willingness to behave differently here than you do elsewhere, even though your reason for doing so is explicitly not that you respect your fellow forum participants.
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Re: Essay by Christian Freeling on inventing games
« Reply #215 on: Jun 9th, 2010, 10:19pm »

In our teens my brother and I tried and tried to make a chess-football hybrid, and never came up with anything workable. In the end I had personally concluded that football's involving chance elements and simultaneous movement makes it impossible to realise as a turn-based abstract strategy game.  
 
Of course introducing a "ball" concept is relatively easy, but then it's very hard to make it feel anything like football. A bit like the drinks machine making tea in the Hitchhikers' Guide to the Galaxy, you come up with something almost, but not quite, entirely unlike football. Smiley
 
So I have immense respect for anyone who actually manages to pull it off. Looking at Hanniball it seems it really does capture the ebb and flow of a football game while still having a chess-like requirement for strategic understanding and not just tactical analysis.
 
So hats off to you Christian! (and Arty)
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christianF
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Re: Essay by Christian Freeling on inventing games
« Reply #216 on: Jun 10th, 2010, 2:11am »

on Jun 9th, 2010, 10:19pm, megajester wrote:
So I have immense respect for anyone who actually manages to pull it off. Looking at Hanniball it seems it really does capture the ebb and flow of a football game while still having a chess-like requirement for strategic understanding and not just tactical analysis.
 
So hats off to you Christian! (and Arty)

Thank you megajester, I think your characterization hits the bulls-eye Smiley .
 
It may have something to do with the fact that it didn't start out as a football game, so I was shielded from any preconceived 'requirements' I might have had if I had set out that way.
 
But it set out as a 'Jeson Mor for grown-ups' and in that process turned out to have a 'soccer spirit'.
Ironically the capturing mechanism contributes in no small way to this, while at the same time being 'not very football like', as Schachtelhalm, one of the players at IGGC, remarked.
That's true, and that's the irony: I would never have come up with this particular mechanism if I had set out to make chess/soccer.
 
I was wondering about the 7 draws in the games till now, and found out 5 of them were achieved by two particular players. I think this somewhat diminishes the statistical relevance (in as far as some 80 games do have any statistical relevance).
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Re: Essay by Christian Freeling on inventing games
« Reply #217 on: Jun 10th, 2010, 6:27am »

on Jun 9th, 2010, 9:30pm, Fritzlein wrote:

I rejoice in your implied willingness to behave differently here than you do elsewhere, even though your reason for doing so is explicitly not that you respect your fellow forum participants.

When did I explicitly state that??  The problem you guys are having with me and rec.games.abstract isn't cursing and insults.  The problem is rec.games.abstract's code of standards, apparently an unfamiliar concept here.  Baseless accusations, fanciful claims, and an orgy of self-importance are the order of the day here in the Arimaa forum - none of which is tolerated by me or anyone else in rec.games.abstract.
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Re: Essay by Christian Freeling on inventing games
« Reply #218 on: Jun 10th, 2010, 6:53am »

on Jun 10th, 2010, 2:11am, christianF wrote:

I was wondering about the 7 draws in the games till now, and found out 5 of them were achieved by two particular players. I think this somewhat diminishes the statistical relevance (in as far as some 80 games do have any statistical relevance).

Current Hanniball stats at iggc:
Number of wins by the 1st player (excluding quits): 39
Number of wins by the 2nd player (excluding quits): 31
Number of draws: 7
 
Hannibal has attained a 10% draw rate in its first month at iggc and you think that's statistically irrelevant??  You don't just toss out statistical data because you don't like it.  The two players in question are undoubtedly more skilled and therefore more pertinent to a statistical analysis than the other players in the sample, simply because they've played the game at least 5 times.  If you want to toss out data, toss out the one time players.  Then see what happens to Hanniball's already alarming draw rate.
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christianF
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Re: Essay by Christian Freeling on inventing games
« Reply #219 on: Jun 10th, 2010, 7:18am »

on Jun 9th, 2010, 6:32am, MarkSteere wrote:
Visions of grandeur ...

on Jun 10th, 2010, 6:27am, MarkSteere wrote:
Baseless accusations, fanciful claims, and an orgy of self-importance ...

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Arty
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Re: Essay by Christian Freeling on inventing games
« Reply #220 on: Jun 10th, 2010, 7:20am »

5 Hanniball games have been ended by a draw because raza had to leave and he asked to finish a game.
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Re: Essay by Christian Freeling on inventing games
« Reply #221 on: Jun 10th, 2010, 7:44am »

on Jun 10th, 2010, 7:20am, Arty wrote:
5 Hanniball games have been ended by a draw because raza had to leave and he asked to finish a game.

Occam's Razor, the simplest explanation is often the best Wink .
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Re: Essay by Christian Freeling on inventing games
« Reply #222 on: Jun 10th, 2010, 10:20am »

on Jun 10th, 2010, 7:18am, christianF wrote:

Mark Steere wrote: "fanciful claims"

Christian, nobody does the fanciful claim quite like you.  You constructed a house of tattered claims and now you have to live in it.
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Re: Essay by Christian Freeling on inventing games
« Reply #223 on: Jun 10th, 2010, 12:03pm »

on Jun 10th, 2010, 10:20am, MarkSteere wrote:

Christian, nobody does the fanciful claim quite like you. You constructed a house of tattered claims and now you have to live in it.

zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
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Re: Essay by Christian Freeling on inventing games
« Reply #224 on: Jun 10th, 2010, 2:24pm »

on Jun 10th, 2010, 12:03pm, megajester wrote:

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15 pages of self-flagellation.  It's a story of love and endurance.
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