Author |
Topic: Essay by Christian Freeling on inventing games (Read 522662 times) |
|
christianF
Forum Moderator
Forum Guru
Arimaa player #4019
Gender: 
Posts: 804
|
 |
Re: Essay by Christian Freeling on inventing games
« Reply #615 on: Aug 11th, 2011, 7:19am » |
|
I invite everyone who'd rather judge for themselves to challenge me at mindsports.
Just register, tick Sygo in the prefs and choose 'challenge'.
|
|
 IP Logged |
|
|
|
christianF
Forum Moderator
Forum Guru
Arimaa player #4019
Gender:
Posts: 804
|
|
Re: Essay by Christian Freeling on inventing games
« Reply #617 on: Aug 12th, 2011, 3:22am » |
|
on Aug 11th, 2011, 7:25pm, NickBentley wrote:Hi Nick,
About 'chicken' you write:
There are two general ways to keep neutral stones from being too close together:
1. Impose a rule limiting how players use neutrals.
2. Create an initial layout of neutrals to ensure a good game.
You would clearly prefer (1) but next explain why (2) is better.
I agree that fixed neutrals solve the problems regarding clogging and even may become a parameter for the strategy/tactics balance.
But you'd still prefer (1), if only ...
So 'if the system is sound the rule will be there' may still hold (but it's a rule of thumb of course, no law of the universe).
I'm sure the current version would be interesting in terms of gameplay, but I fear you will not lose the nagging feeling that you're missing something. The "YvY" feeling if you like (where I missed that the theme wasn't 'connection' at all).
Finally a philosophical point regarding "If there's never a reason to decline, it may as well not be an option".
If you remove the "not" it generally speaking sounds more logical to me.
I like freedom and options, and dislike restrictions and obligations, especially if they explicitly force me to do something I'd do anyway. It's a philosophers' problem though. Practical people wouldn't care  .
|
| « Last Edit: Aug 12th, 2011, 5:07am by christianF » |
IP Logged |
|
|
|
NickBentley
Forum Senior Member
Arimaa player #6704
Gender:
Posts: 44
|
|
Re: Essay by Christian Freeling on inventing games
« Reply #619 on: Aug 12th, 2011, 11:02am » |
|
Quote:
You would clearly prefer (1) but next explain why (2) is better.
I agree that fixed neutrals solve the problems regarding clogging and even may become a parameter for the strategy/tactics balance.
But you'd still prefer (1), if only ...
|
|
Yeap.
Quote:
So 'if the system is sound the rule will be there' may still hold (but it's a rule of thumb of course, no law of the universe).
I'm sure the current version would be interesting in terms of gameplay, but I fear you will not lose the nagging feeling that you're missing something. The "YvY" feeling if you like (where I missed that the theme wasn't 'connection' at all).
|
|
Probably so. It may be that in some sense, the "system isn't sound". I may be trying to shoehorn something into existence that doesn't want to exist. Loops on hex boards aren't natural, after all.
In fact my dream is a symmetrical goals loop game without draws that doesn't require neutrals or any other kind of 'extra'. I still have no idea how to do that. I post Glorieta because it's as close as I've gotten to my ideal so far, and I've done a lot of looking.
The gameplay has gotten to a good place, but the design aesthetic isn't completely there. You can be sure I'll keep at it. I have a list of "holy grails", and this design challenge has vexed me for so long that it's made that list. That means I'll be thinking about it either until it's completely solved or I die.
For the record, I've never been able to succeed in any challenge from the list.
Quote:
Finally a philosophical point regarding "If there's never a reason to decline, it may as well not be an option".
If you remove the "not" it generally speaking sounds more logical to me.
I like freedom and options, and dislike restrictions and obligations, especially if they explicitly force me to do something I'd do anyway. It's a philosophers' problem though. Practical people wouldn't care . |
|
This is an interesting question for me. One issue I fret over is how a game's rules will be received by new players. I want to give new players a sense of direction right from the get-go. I'm thinking especially of players who don't think about abstract games all day long. If I provide an option which would never actually be useful to the players, wouldn't it only result in extra confusion and obscure any sense of direction that they might form? This is the thinking the lead to the omission.
|
|
IP Logged |
|
|
|
christianF
Forum Moderator
Forum Guru
Arimaa player #4019
Gender:
Posts: 804
|
|
Re: Essay by Christian Freeling on inventing games
« Reply #620 on: Aug 12th, 2011, 12:44pm » |
|
on Aug 12th, 2011, 11:02am, NickBentley wrote:Loops on hex boards aren't natural, after all.
In fact my dream is a symmetrical goals loop game without draws that doesn't require neutrals or any other kind of 'extra'. |
|
I feel loops are very natural on a hexboard. The problem is that you can't make them if you just say "let's place alternately and see who makes the first loop". Something must be added or taken away and there seems to be little left to take away.
It's a challenging idea and that's exactly why I'm not going to think about it. Not succeeding makes it a waste of time, and succeeding would take the ground from under your feet. Benedikt actually pressed me to consider the existence of an essential group penalty game so I don't feel all that guilty for finding it. It would be different in this case.
It doesn't seem easy, but it never does till the missing idea emerges. And then, in retrospect, it often seems so easy.
Take some time off before you reconsider 
on Aug 12th, 2011, 11:02am, NickBentley wrote:| If I provide an option which would never actually be useful to the players, wouldn't it only result in extra confusion and obscure any sense of direction that they might form? This is the thinking the lead to the omission. |
|
Never crossed my mind, but come to think of it, yes, a lot of people are more comfortable with that, I suppose.
|
|
IP Logged |
|
|
|
NickBentley
Forum Senior Member
Arimaa player #6704
Gender:
Posts: 44
|
|
Re: Essay by Christian Freeling on inventing games
« Reply #621 on: Aug 12th, 2011, 1:04pm » |
|
Quote:
It's a challenging idea and that's exactly why I'm not going to think about it. Not succeeding makes it a waste of time, and succeeding would take the ground from under your feet.
|
|
To the latter possibility: not really. I don't feel much propriety about games any more. If you happen to dream up an answer despite your best efforts not to, I'll be happy just to learn there's an answer. In fact you may be in a good position to provide it, since you've been near this part of design space before.
Quote:
It doesn't seem easy, but it never does till the missing idea emerges. And then, in retrospect, it often seems so easy.
Take some time off before you reconsider
|
|
Yes, I think I'll go work on some unrelated game ideas. That seems to be the most effective form of "time off" for me.
|
|
IP Logged |
|
|
|
NickBentley
Forum Senior Member
Arimaa player #6704
Gender:
Posts: 44
|
|
Re: Essay by Christian Freeling on inventing games
« Reply #622 on: Aug 12th, 2011, 3:50pm » |
|
Christian:
I'm reading the "evolution of droughts" essay. It's shaping up to be great! Especially helpful for me, as I know little about this part of design space.
|
|
IP Logged |
|
|
|
christianF
Forum Moderator
Forum Guru
Arimaa player #4019
Gender:
Posts: 804
|
|
Re: Essay by Christian Freeling on inventing games
« Reply #623 on: Aug 13th, 2011, 6:28am » |
|
on Aug 12th, 2011, 1:04pm, NickBentley wrote:
To the latter possibility: not really. I don't feel much propriety about games any more. If you happen to dream up an answer despite your best efforts not to, I'll be happy just to learn there's an answer. In fact you may be in a good position to provide it, since you've been near this part of design space before. |
|
Symple was perceived hexagonally, but soon shifted to square and morphed into Sygo, which is essentially square (diagonal cuts, eye-space and the like). You never know where you may end up. At the same time Sygo has severely reduced my ambitions to go out for anything new in the near future. For the time being I'll be happily resting on my laurels
on Aug 12th, 2011, 3:50pm, NickBentley wrote:| I'm reading the "evolution of droughts" essay. It's shaping up to be great! Especially helpful for me, as I know little about this part of design space. |
|
Americans got stuck in Checkers I think, but of course it's much wider than that. However, it's not exactly 'uncharted', to put it mildly.
At the same time Michael Howe recently invented Pommel, introducing linear capture in a Draughts type game. Ever since I considered the idea of linear movement in Draughts (which after gathering dust for 15 years resulted in the two-minutes invention of Dameo), I had rejected the idea to extend it to capture. Yet Michael found a way to embed it naturally, so there's still some 'space' left
|
| « Last Edit: Aug 13th, 2011, 6:38am by christianF » |
IP Logged |
|
|
|
MarkSteere
Forum Guru
Finite games rule
Gender:
Posts: 289
|
|
Re: Essay by Christian Freeling on inventing games
« Reply #624 on: Aug 13th, 2011, 11:11am » |
|
on Aug 13th, 2011, 6:28am, christianF wrote:
Sygo has severely reduced my ambitions to go out for anything new in the near future. For the time being I'll be happily resting on my laurels
|
|
Sygo is not a laurel. Sygo is an overhyped, bad game.
|
|
IP Logged |
|
|
|
christianF
Forum Moderator
Forum Guru
Arimaa player #4019
Gender:
Posts: 804
|
|
Re: Essay by Christian Freeling on inventing games
« Reply #625 on: Aug 13th, 2011, 1:26pm » |
|
on Aug 13th, 2011, 11:11am, MarkSteere wrote:
Sygo is not a laurel. Sygo is an overhyped, bad game. |
|
Apparently the things you don't care about now include your credibility.
|
|
IP Logged |
|
|
|
SpeedRazor
Forum Guru
Skepticism is the Immune System of Science
Gender:
Posts: 72
|
|
Re: Essay by Christian Freeling on inventing games
« Reply #626 on: Aug 13th, 2011, 1:45pm » |
|
on Aug 13th, 2011, 1:26pm, christianF wrote:
Apparently the things you don't care about now include your credibility. |
|
Loki had some? In the Pantheon of the all-time great abstract game design artists, would MSG be mentioned in the first thousand?!
Sorry Christian, just absorbing yours and Nick's banter...
(This stuff is Golden; the recording of the genesis of games. 'Could you imagine if someone had taken out Leonardo's notes from the trash?...)
|
| « Last Edit: Aug 13th, 2011, 3:16pm by SpeedRazor » |
IP Logged |
|
|
|
MarkSteere
Forum Guru
Finite games rule
Gender:
Posts: 289
|
|
Re: Essay by Christian Freeling on inventing games
« Reply #627 on: Aug 13th, 2011, 3:02pm » |
|
Mark Steere wrote: "Sygo is an overhyped, bad game."
on Aug 13th, 2011, 1:26pm, christianF wrote:
Apparently the things you don't care about now include your credibility. |
|
The Emperor's game. Only those who are honest enough and credible enough can appreciate Sygo.
|
|
IP Logged |
|
|
|
MarkSteere
Forum Guru
Finite games rule
Gender:
Posts: 289
|
|
Re: Essay by Christian Freeling on inventing games
« Reply #628 on: Aug 13th, 2011, 3:08pm » |
|
on Aug 13th, 2011, 1:45pm, SpeedRazor wrote:
Who's Loki?
on Aug 13th, 2011, 1:45pm, SpeedRazor wrote:
rofl
|
|
IP Logged |
|
|
|
MarkSteere
Forum Guru
Finite games rule
Gender:
Posts: 289
|
|
Re: Essay by Christian Freeling on inventing games
« Reply #629 on: Aug 13th, 2011, 3:29pm » |
|
MSG games were designed for the centuries. Flume will thrive long after flavor-of-the-month games like Arimaa have been grouped into an obscure, historical footnote.
Sygo? An ugly duckling fell out of a tree, landing on a rock. Never had a chance.
|
|
IP Logged |
|
|
|
|
Home
Help
Search
Members
Login
Register
Notify of replies
Send Topic
Print