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Topic: Bot Bashing Records Discussion (Read 10191 times) |
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Arimabuff
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Arimaa player #2764
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Re: Bot Bashing Records Discussion
« Reply #105 on: Apr 16th, 2008, 1:53pm » |
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on Apr 16th, 2008, 1:35pm, mistre wrote:I have attempted an official rule writing for the handicap games - see the botbashing page. I think I encapsulated in the rules in only 2 bullets, but please check my wording and decide if it looks correct or if I missed anything.
I don't believe there are currently any move restrictions (number of steps each turn or extra steps), or speed restrictions (how fast you sacrifice your pieces).
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Two details:
First, pulling and pushing are the only types of active play. I don't know what "advancing" means in that context. It may get people confused to read that word. Besides, you already said that sacrificed pieces only move toward the trap.
Second, you forgot to mention that ONLY the pieces to be sacrificed can move during the sacrificing period and that if a piece NOT to be sacrificed moves even ONE step during that period then it ends it right there.
Other than that, it's perfect.
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mistre
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Re: Bot Bashing Records Discussion
« Reply #106 on: Apr 16th, 2008, 2:56pm » |
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on Apr 16th, 2008, 1:53pm, Arimabuff wrote:
Two details:
First, pulling and pushing are the only types of active play. I don't know what "advancing" means in that context. It may get people confused to read that word. Besides, you already said that sacrificed pieces only move toward the trap.
Second, you forgot to mention that ONLY the pieces to be sacrificed can move during the sacrificing period and that if a piece NOT to be sacrificed moves even ONE step during that period then it ends it right there.
Other than that, it's perfect.
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Thanks - I'll fix it now.
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Fritzlein
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Re: Bot Bashing Records Discussion
« Reply #107 on: Apr 16th, 2008, 3:56pm » |
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on Apr 16th, 2008, 1:35pm, mistre wrote:| I have attempted an official rule writing for the handicap games - see the botbashing page. |
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Here's an alternative way to say (I think) the same thing. It's hard to be both precise and consice, though, so maybe I made it worse. 
The sacrificing period ends when
* the player steps any piece to a square that is not closer to the nearest trap
* the player initiates a push or pull
* the bot initiates a push or pull
The handicap consists of all the player's pieces that were dead before the first step taken by any of his pieces still living when the sacrificing period ends
The last sentence could also be restated, "A piece is excluded from the handicap if it died after a step by any piece that didn't die within the sacrificing period." Was this the intent of your rules?
These rules seem rather permissive to me, but I can understand the attraction of having some latitude within the sacrificing period. Perhaps if the rules were too strict, there would not be enough scope for skill to express itself. I still think the ultimate arbiter of whether this will be a good rule is whether the same handicap can be achieved by leaving the pieces out of the setup; maybe it will work out just about the same. In the mean time, it's a good rule simply if all the active bot-bashers can agree to live by it!
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Arimabuff
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Re: Bot Bashing Records Discussion
« Reply #108 on: Apr 16th, 2008, 4:43pm » |
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on Apr 16th, 2008, 3:56pm, Fritzlein wrote:
Here's an alternative way to say (I think) the same thing. It's hard to be both precise and consice, though, so maybe I made it worse.
The sacrificing period ends when
* the player steps any piece to a square that is not closer to the nearest trap
* the player initiates a push or pull
* the bot initiates a push or pull
The handicap consists of all the player's pieces that were dead before the first step taken by any of his pieces still living when the sacrificing period ends
The last sentence could also be restated, "A piece is excluded from the handicap if it died after a step by any piece that didn't die within the sacrificing period." Was this the intent of your rules?
These rules seem rather permissive to me, but I can understand the attraction of having some latitude within the sacrificing period. Perhaps if the rules were too strict, there would not be enough scope for skill to express itself. I still think the ultimate arbiter of whether this will be a good rule is whether the same handicap can be achieved by leaving the pieces out of the setup; maybe it will work out just about the same. In the mean time, it's a good rule simply if all the active bot-bashers can agree to live by it! |
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No offence Karl but your way of stating things makes you sound like a judge pronouncing the sentence of a guy who would be culpable of several counts of theft and two of embezzlements associated with polygamy. 
I think that the latest version of mistre has the advantage of being more accessible to the layman (you know what I mean, the hoi polloi, the great unwashed, the man on the street etc...) and of sounding more like... how shall I put it... FUN!
I think that mistre’s version both speaks to the mind of plain old me and describes all the games that have been admitted in the grid so far and don’t leave room for misunderstanding. Unless you can find an example of the latter, I believe that there is no cause for gilding the lily, at least that's how I see it.
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Arimabuff
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Re: Bot Bashing Records Discussion
« Reply #109 on: Apr 16th, 2008, 4:51pm » |
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on Apr 16th, 2008, 3:56pm, Fritzlein wrote:
...In the mean time, it's a good rule simply if all the active bot-bashers can agree to live by it! |
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It has been shown that you can do a great deal of sacrificing (up to leaving only CRR as your remaining pieces) while following these rules. So all the bot-bashers HAVE, if some in the future try not to then that will only mean that they are of the troublemaker kind and not people who play for fun. AT least that's how I see it.
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99of9
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Re: Bot Bashing Records Discussion
« Reply #110 on: Apr 16th, 2008, 5:36pm » |
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Those rules look well stated to me. (both by mistre and Fritzlein, thanks)
One technicality would be when the first non-handicap piece to move moves away from defending a piece on a trap. Does the piece on the trap count as a handicap?
Also it is worth defining how to work out what handicap is larger than what other handicap. I haven't heard suggestions other than mine (majority of current published material evals) yet, so maybe we need more time to think about this.
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Arimabuff
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Re: Bot Bashing Records Discussion
« Reply #111 on: Apr 16th, 2008, 5:44pm » |
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on Apr 16th, 2008, 5:36pm, 99of9 wrote:...One technicality would be when the first non-handicap piece to move moves away from defending a piece on a trap. Does the piece on the trap count as a handicap?...
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Moving away from a trap is a violation of the rule that says that all the pieces during the sacrificing period move TOWARD the trap and not away from it. So technically the piece ON the trap dies of the consequence of the deal breaker. It can't count.
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Also it is worth defining how to work out what handicap is larger than what other handicap. I haven't heard suggestions other than mine (majority of current published material evals) yet, so maybe we need more time to think about this. |
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I can live with your rule. ( Or maybe my judgment is tainted by the fact that I benefited from it. )
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mistre
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Re: Bot Bashing Records Discussion
« Reply #112 on: Apr 16th, 2008, 7:51pm » |
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on Apr 16th, 2008, 5:36pm, 99of9 wrote:
Also it is worth defining how to work out what handicap is larger than what other handicap. I haven't heard suggestions other than mine (majority of current published material evals) yet, so maybe we need more time to think about this. |
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I agree we should go with the majority of the current material evals. I am working on a spreadsheet that will list all major handicaps and in what order they are based on the 2/3 majority. I will post it here when I am done.
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Arimabuff
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Re: Bot Bashing Records Discussion
« Reply #113 on: Apr 17th, 2008, 6:01am » |
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on Apr 16th, 2008, 5:52am, 99of9 wrote:Arimaalon EMHHDDC with gold in game 74273
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Arimaalon EMHHDDCRRR with gold in game 74344
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Arimabuff
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Arimaa player #2764
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Re: Bot Bashing Records Discussion
« Reply #114 on: Apr 17th, 2008, 10:10am » |
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Arimaalon EMHHDDCRRRR with silver in game 74379
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Arimabuff
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Re: Bot Bashing Records Discussion
« Reply #115 on: Apr 18th, 2008, 10:23am » |
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GnoBot2005P1 EMHHDDCRRRRRR with silver in game 74454
IOW I just beat that bot with only CRR !!!
GnoBot2005P1 EMHHDDCRRRRRRR with silver in game 74456
Make that with only CR!!
The best handicap in Arimaa's history!
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Fritzlein
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Arimaa player #706
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Re: Bot Bashing Records Discussion
« Reply #116 on: Apr 18th, 2008, 2:05pm » |
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Congratulations, Arimabuff. Winning with only CR is amazing.
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Arimabuff
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Arimaa player #2764
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Re: Bot Bashing Records Discussion
« Reply #117 on: Apr 18th, 2008, 2:34pm » |
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on Apr 18th, 2008, 2:05pm, Fritzlein wrote:| Congratulations, Arimabuff. Winning with only CR is amazing. |
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Thanks!
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arimaa_master
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Arimaa player #2010
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Re: Bot Bashing Records Discussion
« Reply #118 on: Apr 19th, 2008, 2:24pm » |
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M handicap - bot_Clueless2006P1 - with silver - game 74536
MH handicap - bot_Clueless2006P1 - with gold - game 74538
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mistre
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Re: Bot Bashing Records Discussion
« Reply #119 on: Apr 19th, 2008, 3:37pm » |
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After all of this talk of CR vs RRR remaining on the Gnobot Silver handicap, why is the Gold handicap still EMHHDDCRRRR?
Is it that much harder with Gold?
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