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omar
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Re: One versus the Mob
« Reply #30 on: Mar 28th, 2007, 1:04am »
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I just checked to see how to setup group based access to sections of the forum and found out that this forum doesn't support it. Bummer. But the good news is that the newer version says it supports this feature. So I will have to upgrade before we start this game.
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JacquesB
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Re: One versus the Mob
« Reply #31 on: Apr 5th, 2007, 6:40am »
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Please, don't let this thread die. I have nothing new on this, just that there were no posts in the last week. I think we will all improve our Arimaa knowledge participating in strategical discussions based on a game.
 
What exactly are we waiting to start?
 
a. A voting system for the chatroom?
b. Who will be the One?
c. Who will be the moderator/admin?
 
This first depends on Omar, I guess. The rest needs volunteers. Since the admin should have the power to break ties, a strong player is required.
 
Candidates, please show up.  Wink  Of course, I will collaborate if there is something I can do, but I am not strong enough as a player.
 
Jacques.
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Fritzlein
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Re: One versus the Mob
« Reply #32 on: Apr 5th, 2007, 8:50am »
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As for the player, I think we just need a confirmation from chessandgo that he is sure he is willing to be the One.  If the pace of the game is a week per move, the game could easily take two years.  The Mob can survive some players dropping out as other players join, but the One will be under pressure constantly.
 
For the discussion, we only need Omar to set up a dedicated forum under the Players section.  I'm sure we can take chessandgo on his honor not to read the discussions of the Mob.
 
For the voting someone needs to write the Shulze counting code.  Or does it exist already as open source?
 
The greatest sticking point may be finding a team coordinator to run the voting software, to decide when to call for a vote as opposed to seeing the consensus, to decide which candidate moves people should vote among, to decide when to close the vote and count the results,  etc.  I expect this to role to also be rather time consuming, and I don't want to do it.
 
By the way, I don't think the coordinator should have the power to break ties.  There already is some power implied in deciding when to close the vote.  I think rather that there should be an explicit method to break as many ties as possible, and that further ties should be broken randomly.
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chessandgo
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Re: One versus the Mob
« Reply #33 on: Apr 5th, 2007, 12:02pm »
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on Apr 5th, 2007, 8:50am, Fritzlein wrote:

The greatest sticking point may be finding a team coordinator to run the voting software, to decide when to call for a vote as opposed to seeing the consensus, to decide which candidate moves people should vote among, to decide when to close the vote and count the results,  etc.  I expect this to role to also be rather time consuming, and I don't want to do it.

 
Agreed ; above all, we have to determine who will coordinate, and precisely how. As for the lone player, it'd be ok for me, but many players might want to take the job, you on top of all, Karl. Not that I'm advocating for you, but if you're part of the rest-of-the-world side, I fear that your combined skills for arimaa playing and eloquence will make us chose your move every time Wink
 
Maybe the best way to fasten things is to write a draft rules-set for this game, and ask everyone what they think about it until everyone is satisfied ... If you want to do it, Jacques, don't hesitate Smiley
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The_Jeh
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Re: One versus the Mob
« Reply #34 on: Apr 6th, 2007, 12:21am »
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Here's a rough rules set, in no particular order, just to get something underway:
 
1. The game will be played as a regular game with the One logged in against the Mob. The Mob will use its own special registered player, having a password known only to the Mob Coordinator, who will log into the gameroom as this special player and input moves.
2. The time constraints for each player shall be 168h/0/0/0/104moves/168h
3. The One shall be allowed to move at any time after his clock starts.
4. The Mob Coordinator shall put up candidates for voting with 36-24h of the Mob's time remaining.
5. The Mob Coordinator shall end voting and move before the Mob's time runs out, but not before at least 20h of voting have passed.
6. The number of candidates the Mob Coordinator chooses must be at least three, preferably five, and never more than seven.
7. The Mob Coordinator is obliged to move according to the legitimate vote of the Mob, using the Schulze method.
8. Mob members may enter and alter their voting preference during voting hours, but votes are final when the Coordinator takes roll call.  Votes are not saved unless all candidates have been ranked.
9. Mob discussion is allowed continuously, regardless of the state of the clock.  The One may not enter the Mob's forum.
10. Should any rules be broken, the opposing player has the option of claiming victory if he so chooses.  Omar has authority to settle violation disputes.
11. Mob members must register to vote and discuss in the designated forum.  Registration may occur at any time during the progression of the game.  However, a minimum of five registered Mob members, including the Coordinator, is required before the game commences.
12. The Mob Coordinator may transfer his responsibilities to another Mob member with the consent of said Mob member and Omar.  The Mob's player password shall be transferred privately and must be changed by the new Coordinator.
13. Omar has the final say regarding all game disputes after the game begins and can cancel or postpone it at his disgression.
« Last Edit: Apr 6th, 2007, 12:43am by The_Jeh » IP Logged
JacquesB
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Re: One versus the Mob
« Reply #35 on: Apr 6th, 2007, 9:29am »
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   I like The_Jeh's proposal, but I would set a procedure based in fixed time periods:
 
    E.g.: 4 days for move proposal, 5th day move number adjustment, 6th day voting. (day = 24 hour period starting when The One moves) An email sent to all members when The One moves as in a postal game triggers the periods.
 
  1. In the first four days, anybody can propose moves, but only one per player. The proposed move can also be changed.
 
  2. The maximum number of moves for the election day is 5 (it sounds more reasonable than 7 to me, just a proposal).
 
  3. I don't see the point of a minimum number of moves. If everybody is unanimous, there is no election process.  (We win one day to put pressure on The One Wink )
 
   If after the first 4 days:
 
   a. If there are 1 to 4 moves: Extra moves may be given during the 5th day. (Note, it is the duty of the admin to provide a move after a too long silence period, so the no move case is impossible.) It may seem unfair to accept a weaker move just because it arrived first with no quality debate, but it happens only because the move was proposed too late. The period for proposing moves are the first 4 days, proposing moves on the 5th should be exceptional, but we don't want to lose the possible improvement either.
 
   b. If there are more than 5 moves: The players should suggest during the 5th day what moves should be taken out. The ideal situation it that the proposer(s) of the worse move(s) take them out convinced of their weakness. If that does not happen, the admin will have to leave only 5 moves for the election day.
 
   c. When there are exactly 5 moves: This day is for campaigning. (All other days are also valid for that, including the election day.) Only exceptionally and with the authorization of the admin can a proposer change his move in the 5th day.
 
    During the election day moves may not be changed.
 
    I think having a fixed procedure like that makes things simpler for both the admin and the members who can adjust their schedules as soon as they get the email.
 
    Everything not mentioned = I agree with The_Jeh
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The_Jeh
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Re: One versus the Mob
« Reply #36 on: Apr 6th, 2007, 10:08am »
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The reason I made the hours flexible is so that the Coordinator doesn't have to get up at 3 A.M. to act.  I do like your idea of a campaign period, though.  How about the Coordinator identifies candidates with 60-48h remaining, initiates voting with 36-24h remaining, and moves after at least 20h of voting?  Remember that because the discussion is continuous, lobbying may be done during the election period, too.
« Last Edit: Apr 6th, 2007, 10:11am by The_Jeh » IP Logged
Fritzlein
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Re: One versus the Mob
« Reply #37 on: Apr 6th, 2007, 11:20am »
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I like one week per move as the time control, but I would like to see some flexibility, such as the being able to move within four days if there is no dissent (e.g. there's one and only one way to capture the other guy's camel) but also to use the banked reserve time to extend voting if the voters seem to be unsure.  I would trust the coordinator to make a good decision about when to use the extra time, rather than tying the hands of the coordinator with rigid rules.
 
From my experience with team chess, the extra time isn't necessary every time there is a disagreement.  Often the disagreement is stylistic, and before long everyone is ready to vote and accept the result.  The need for extra time comes when the campaigning is starting to make people waver.  Folks will start to say, "I like move A, but the objections raised recently need to be examined more thoroughly, and if we can't resolve the issues with move A, I will switch to move B."  If lots of people are wavering, the coordinator should delay counting the vote.
 
Therefore I propose the time control of 1w/3w/100/3w/3y.  The three week maximum reserve is also nice for the One in case he has to go on vacation.
« Last Edit: Apr 6th, 2007, 3:20pm by Fritzlein » IP Logged

chessandgo
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Re: One versus the Mob
« Reply #38 on: Apr 6th, 2007, 11:39am »
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I like flexibility of time management too ; another issue is the number of candidates moves. I'd be for allowing a bigger number of candidates than 5 or 7 moves. How about leaving it to the discretion of the coordinator ? I'm sure that in most positions the number of legitimates moves people will propose will be much larger than this ...
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NIC1138
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Re: One versus the Mob
« Reply #39 on: Apr 6th, 2007, 2:01pm »
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My only concern is that it would be good for the mob players to be able to see the game in the that "plan" feature of the flash client... Is it possible to offer this to anyone? It would be even nicer if we could already have links to a plan board with the proposed mob moves already done, but this may be asking too much! Grin
 
Without that the players will all have to store the game in their machines, running local clients to "test" the candidate-moves... It´s not the end of the world, of course... But where is the XXIst century spirit?!  Cool
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The_Jeh
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Re: One versus the Mob
« Reply #40 on: Apr 6th, 2007, 2:41pm »
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Okay.  Scrap all the rules for when to announce candidates and vote.  Leave that to the discretion of the Coordinator.  As for moving in a reasonable time, we'll let the clock speak for itself.
 
In that case, I propose three rules:
1. After the coordinator announces candidates, he may change them due to public discussion.
2. After the coordinator begins the voting, he may not change the candidates unless there is a technical issue.
3. The coordinator should make an effort to notify the Mob in advance what time he plans to open voting.  
 
Also, perhaps a synopsis of a move candidate's reasoning should accompany it on the ballot.  For example, beside a move choice it might say: "Advance elephant to pressure camel on c6; move camel to freeze horse on e3."
 
Maybe the game will be long, but time flies when you're having fun.  In any case, I'm sure it's a worthwhile investment in Arimaa.
« Last Edit: Apr 6th, 2007, 2:48pm by The_Jeh » IP Logged
Fritzlein
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Re: One versus the Mob
« Reply #41 on: Apr 6th, 2007, 3:40pm »
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Another thought about the number of candidate moves: What if each member of the Mob could select one candidate move?  That way each player can rest assured that their proposal will get a fair vote, but the number of moves to choose between is limited by the number of players.  Of course, and unlimited number of moves may be under discussion during the week, but when it comes time for each player to name a favorite, I don't anticipate our small community will produce more than seven moves to vote between, and usually around three.
 
An additional benefit of candidate moves bubbling up in this way is that occasionally a majority will suggest the same move, which eliminates the need for a preferential vote.
 
on Apr 6th, 2007, 2:01pm, NIC1138 wrote:
My only concern is that it would be good for the mob players to be able to see the game in the that "plan" feature of the flash client...

If the game exists in the gameroom, anyone can open it up and hit the plan button.  Try it with a current postal game!
 
on Apr 5th, 2007, 12:02pm, chessandgo wrote:
As for the lone player, it'd be ok for me, but many players might want to take the job, you on top of all, Karl. Not that I'm advocating for you, but if you're part of the rest-of-the-world side, I fear that your combined skills for arimaa playing and eloquence will make us chose your move every time Wink

I sincerely hope that the Mob with me as a member will play differently than I would play alone.  I expect the Mob will play better.  Also, Jean, since you are the only person who is expressing a desire (or even willingness) to be the One, let's consider that settled.
 
We are still lacking a Mob Coordinator, even though people have had ample time to volunteer by now.  If nobody volunteers soon, I think we will be forced to draft Ron Weasley, since everyone trusts him based on his stellar performance as Tournament Director for the World Championhip, Computer Championship, and Arimaa Challenge matches.  Everybody sing along with me: "Weasley is our King"
« Last Edit: Apr 6th, 2007, 3:55pm by Fritzlein » IP Logged

NIC1138
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Re: One versus the Mob
« Reply #42 on: Apr 6th, 2007, 4:08pm »
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on Apr 6th, 2007, 3:40pm, Fritzlein wrote:
Another thought about the number of candidate moves: What if each member of the Mob could select one candidate move?
I tought about something like that too... But I´m feeling that only in the opening we will have many options to choose from! Undecided I believe that just letting the President of the Chamber picking N candidates will be just fine...
Quote:
I sincerely hope that the Mob with me as a member will play differently than I would play alone.
I sure hope Fritz can join us in the mob!... If a possible lack of opposition is a problem, then consider created the Extremist Bottom-Wing Party. I swear to defend my 1500-rating opinions till death in the polls!! Cheesy
Quote:
If the game exists in the gameroom, anyone can open it up and hit the plan button.  Try it with a current postal game!
Oh, great then! Roll Eyes I´ll tell you later some toughts of mine about that game of yours against blue22...  Grin
 
 
Now, about implementations of the Schulze method, looks like this won´t be a problem. Take a look at this page, for example... We might use exactly the same program the Debian project uses!! There are some on-line calculators too. (So each Member of the Parliment can check the result for himself Wink  )
 
http://seehuhn.de/comp/vote.html
 
« Last Edit: Apr 6th, 2007, 4:14pm by NIC1138 » IP Logged
The_Jeh
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Re: One versus the Mob
« Reply #43 on: Apr 6th, 2007, 5:35pm »
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We needn't worry about everyone always voting with Fritzlein because he himself will probably, in making a decision, have to discard other moves that he feels are equally good.  There are so many move choices in Arimaa that we will likely be voting between related moves that differ only by one or two steps sometimes.
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99of9
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Re: One versus the Mob
« Reply #44 on: Apr 6th, 2007, 7:31pm »
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on Apr 6th, 2007, 4:08pm, NIC1138 wrote:
I tought about something like that too... But I´m feeling that only in the opening we will have many options to choose from! Undecided I believe that just letting the President of the Chamber picking N candidates will be just fine...

I agree with Fritz on this one.  I'm fine with a vote between 20 different possibilities, and I like the fact that everyone's contribution would be under consideration.
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