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   One versus the Mob
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   Author  Topic: One versus the Mob  (Read 5544 times)
The_Jeh
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Re: One versus the Mob
« Reply #45 on: Apr 6th, 2007, 11:49pm »
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I wouldn't have the time to properly rank 20 different candidates.  Most people, I think, would rank the top choices they were considering and then randomly rank the others.  And if everyone was promoting their own candidate, you can be sure which candidate would get their #1 vote.  The overall winner would be determined by who gets the most #2 votes.
 
Regardless of this, the major battle is not in the voting.  The battle is in the discussion.  It is there that moves are promoted or defeated.  The voting is only a reflection of this.  It is wrong to say that having only five candidates does not allow all moves to be considered.  They were all considered, and the ones not exhibiting enough interest were rightfully dropped.  
 
If you propose a move in discussion, it is necessarily under consideration.  If a move you like fails to become a candidate, don't complain unless you showed your support during the discussion.
 
For these reasons, just have N<8 candidates.
« Last Edit: Apr 6th, 2007, 11:54pm by The_Jeh » IP Logged
NIC1138
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Re: One versus the Mob
« Reply #46 on: Apr 7th, 2007, 1:55am »
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on Apr 6th, 2007, 11:49pm, The_Jeh wrote:
I wouldn't have the time to properly rank 20 different candidates.  Most people, I think, would rank the top choices they were considering and then randomly rank the others.

 
AFAIK, you don´t have to rank allllll candidates with the Schulze method (or many others)!!!... You can give the same preference to some candidates, and can leave some unranked (they will be considered less favoured then the ranked ones, and indiferent by the voter)
 
Read the beginning of the wikipedia article!... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schulze_method
 
Everyone will be able to vote "1" for their own moves, "2" for Fritzlein´s , "3" to the rest, and "99" to mine!! ;D
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RonWeasley
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Re: One versus the Mob
« Reply #47 on: Apr 7th, 2007, 2:06pm »
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I think everyone is shy about being the Mob coordinator because of the time that might be involved.  The coordinator has to follow the discussion of the Mob.  The coordinator has to select move candidates and notify the Mob that it's time to vote then make the move.
 
Actually if the Mob shows a little compassion, being the coordinator is not so bad as long as there's an allowance for being occasionally late, occasionally clueless, and technology support.
 
I might caution against too rigid a move selection process so that a late realization about the position can be accommodated.
 
Given this, I could volunteer to be the coordinator.  I would like somebody else to develop the technology and I would be inclined to bend the rules if it meant considering a better move.  I would want to participate as a Mob member but try to be objective about my opinions when being the coordinator.
 
Thoughts?
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Fritzlein
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Re: One versus the Mob
« Reply #48 on: Apr 7th, 2007, 2:42pm »
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Ron, I'm so happy you are (at least tentatively) willing to coordinate for the Mob.  The technology is already available.  I followed NIC's links to find
 
http://www.cs.cornell.edu/w8/~andru/civs/
 
where you can create your own Shulze elections for free.  I made an election regarding my postal game with Blue22.  (Don't worry, the voting is about a move for which I already made the blunder.)  Supposedly anyone can go vote there at the URL
 
http://www.cs.cornell.edu/w8/~andru/cgi-perl/civs/vote.pl?id=E_ac35e58a5 79e2a31&akey=9f8799418b6aa1ab
 
although I guess I shouldn't say it works until at least one other person has voted.  The voting can be secured by a list of e-mail addresses when the actual game starts.  I assume that for secured elections everyone is mailed a key that enables them to vote.  Not that I am terribly worried about ballot stuffing or random strangers voting, but why not take advantage of built-in security features in the actual game?  The only downside would be that folks couldn't vote without giving their e-mail address to the coordinator.
 
I encourage everyone to go there and vote, and see whether this seems like a good tool for the Mob Coordinator to use.  (I made a mistake of numbering the candidate moves from one to four.  I think the order that the elections software presents candidates to the voters is random, so to be fair we should not to number the candidate moves in the real game.)
« Last Edit: Apr 7th, 2007, 3:12pm by Fritzlein » IP Logged

Fritzlein
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Re: One versus the Mob
« Reply #49 on: Apr 7th, 2007, 3:16pm »
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Since we have the advantage of numbers in the Mob, we should let chessandgo choose whether to play Gold or Silver, right?  (I would say automatically give him Gold, except that statistics show Silver may have the advantage.)
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NIC1138
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Re: One versus the Mob
« Reply #50 on: Apr 7th, 2007, 5:08pm »
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on Apr 7th, 2007, 2:42pm, Fritzlein wrote:
Supposedly anyone can go vote there at the URL
 
http://www.cs.cornell.edu/w8/~andru/cgi-perl/civs/vote.pl?id=E_ac35e58a5 79e2a31&akey=9f8799418b6aa1ab
 
although I guess I shouldn't say it works until at least one other person has voted.

Looks like it works great!!
 
Quote:
The only downside would be that folks couldn't vote without giving their e-mail address to the coordinator.

I am pro-  using emails and keys and security stuff... If there is anybody afraid of using his personal e-mail, I would be glad to give away a gmail invitation!...
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Fritzlein
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Re: One versus the Mob
« Reply #51 on: Apr 8th, 2007, 9:26am »
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I see we have eight votes now in my fake election.  None of the four choices has more the three first-place votes, so there is no majority, but there is a Condorcet winner.  It looks like the software is serving its purpose well.
 
In order for Omar to set up the game, he just needs to know whether chessandgo will play Gold or Silver, and he needs to know the time control.  Is there general support for my suggestion of one week per move with a three week max reserve?   If we have three competing suggestions for time control, voting among them could be our first real use of Condorcet.  Smiley
« Last Edit: Apr 8th, 2007, 9:36am by Fritzlein » IP Logged

chessandgo
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Re: One versus the Mob
« Reply #52 on: Apr 8th, 2007, 12:59pm »
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I count about 10 or 12 players who have shown willingness to participate to this fun event : Karl, Nic, The_Jeh, Ron, Evan, Jacques, myself ; Omar (?), jdb (?), 99of9 (?), Olti (?), aaaa (?). I suppose more players have not voiced their opinion so far but will participate nonetheless ; maybe we should ask interested people to name themselves, to see who'll be in for a start, and check who wants to be the single player ... several players, including yourself Karl, might be more legitimate than me to take the job.
 
As for the color, chose how you prefer ...
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camelback
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Re: One versus the Mob
« Reply #53 on: Apr 8th, 2007, 5:18pm »
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I'm in, I can be one among the mob. I like this experiment and also want to learn from this.
 
But I will be in vacation for 3 weeks in May.
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Janzert
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Re: One versus the Mob
« Reply #54 on: Apr 8th, 2007, 8:00pm »
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I'm interested.
 
One thought; was there a reason more consideration wasn't given to a Mob v. Mob game first? This would relieve the necessity of anyone taking on the full burden of being "the one". Players could be assigned randomly or semi-randomly with an attempt to balance the ratings between the teams.
 
It does require a larger number of people to want to participate though, probably closer to 20.
 
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Fritzlein
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Re: One versus the Mob
« Reply #55 on: Apr 8th, 2007, 8:10pm »
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on Apr 8th, 2007, 12:59pm, chessandgo wrote:
I count about 10 or 12 players who have shown willingness to participate to this fun event

Ten is just about the minimum number.  There have been 9 votes in my fake Condorcet election, two of which were me testing ballot stuffing.  I advise against trying to split everyone into two teams for our first game, until we see what the interest level is.
 
On the other hand, I am hopeful that even more people will participate in the discussion of the game and voting on moves than have participated in this thread so far.  Maybe when folks see how much fun we are having, they will jump right in.
 
Quote:
and check who wants to be the single player ...

I would much rather you be the One than I.  Even if you refuse to be the One, I might also refuse, depending on how much of a hassle Elmo and I have buying and moving into our new house.
 
I understand how you want to give everyone a fair shot at being the One, but I don't recall anyone else volunteering so far.  For you to agree to be the One would not be an act of presumption on your part (especially since you are the World Champion) but rather a favor to the rest of us so that we can see what a team game is like and learn from the discussion.
 
Quote:
As for the color, chose how you prefer ...

OK, I will propose that the One plays Gold, unless anyone has any objections.  Speak now or forever hold your peace.
« Last Edit: Apr 8th, 2007, 8:14pm by Fritzlein » IP Logged

NIC1138
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Re: One versus the Mob
« Reply #56 on: Apr 8th, 2007, 9:39pm »
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on Apr 8th, 2007, 8:10pm, Fritzlein wrote:
For you to agree to be the One would not be an act of presumption on your part. (especially since you are the World Champion)

I would even propose that the World Champion should be forced on a game like this every year, so The Mob can beat the crap out out him! Grin
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The_Jeh
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Re: One versus the Mob
« Reply #57 on: Apr 8th, 2007, 10:17pm »
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We should offer an incentive to the One to play his best. (Yes, I know he'll play his best anyway, but still...)  I recommend bestowing a permanent, honorary title to any One who defeats the Mob in an official One vs. the Mob match.  How about "Arimaa Paladin?"  What's a match like this unless we raise the stakes a little?
 
I would have suggested "Arimaa Grandmaster," but in the future perhaps this title will be given to several players with certain other credentials.
 
Of course, I am assuming it will be difficult for the One to win.  Maybe he'll make us look like a bunch of woodpushers.
« Last Edit: Apr 8th, 2007, 10:57pm by The_Jeh » IP Logged
Fritzlein
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Re: One versus the Mob
« Reply #58 on: Apr 8th, 2007, 11:14pm »
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We'll let him choose:  He can be The Archmage, The Irresistible Force, or The Grand High Poobah.
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The_Jeh
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Re: One versus the Mob
« Reply #59 on: Apr 8th, 2007, 11:22pm »
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Or His Royal Oneness can have his name in gold lettering everywhere on the site.  But we're not going to let that happen, are we?
 
The creation of this One vs. the Mob match will provide Arimaa World Champions with something greater (maybe) to strive for.  I know how much I hate the feeling that there's nothing greater to accomplish, like when you beat a video game.... or become the Pope.
« Last Edit: Apr 8th, 2007, 11:37pm by The_Jeh » IP Logged
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