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jdb
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Re: Move 3
« Reply #15 on: May 2nd, 2007, 8:47am »
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I'm leaning toward 3b hb7s ed4s ed3e Md2n.  

 
I think this is a very good choice. It takes the initative away from Gold.
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NIC1138
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Re: Move 3
« Reply #16 on: May 2nd, 2007, 10:42am »
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on Apr 29th, 2007, 1:10am, The_Jeh wrote:
Maybe take Fritzlein's third suggestion, but change it slightly to 3b hb7s ed4s dd8s ce8w.
Why moving the cat?... ???
« Last Edit: May 2nd, 2007, 10:42am by NIC1138 » IP Logged
RonWeasley
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Re: Move 3
« Reply #17 on: May 2nd, 2007, 11:24am »
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Not much discussion here.  Are we ready to vote?
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NIC1138
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Re: Move 3
« Reply #18 on: May 2nd, 2007, 1:13pm »
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on May 2nd, 2007, 11:24am, RonWeasley wrote:
Not much discussion here.  Are we ready to vote?
Are we going to create some kind of restriction of candidate moves per player, or let it open as 99o9 sugests?... (As an AI enthusiast, I would like to collect a big database of moves and relative avaliations given by many players! =)  )
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Fritzlein
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Re: Move 3
« Reply #19 on: May 2nd, 2007, 2:05pm »
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on May 2nd, 2007, 11:24am, RonWeasley wrote:
Not much discussion here.  Are we ready to vote?

Oh, dear, is it time to vote already?  I've hardly looked at the position, but I feel obliged to express an opinion anyway.  Let me present my ballot (with no deep thought or research) just as an experiment to see if the vote comes out in identical order to my suggestions, purely on the strength of my reputation.  Tongue  
 
1. 3b hb7s cc7w dd8s dd7w
This move was my first inclination, due to the move's extreme flexibility, and I still like it.  I love having my elephant in the center where it can do anything: it can attack, it can punish an advancing horse, and it can fall back to threaten a blockade if chessandgo digs around with his elephant on the seventh rank.  His most forcing move is to put his elephant on e7, pushing our camel to e6.  We can get our elephant back to e5, camel to f6, rabbit to g7, which protects against everything including a rabbit pull.  It's not an exciting position, but it is very solid, and note that our elephant on e5, cutting off his elephant on e7 from the center, gives our camel the ability to advance against the g3 horse.  Thus even though we might be forced to defend, we wouldn't be entirely passive.
 
2. 3b hb7s ed4s ra7e rh7w
I quite like this move, too.  Tucking in the rabbits like that has an astonishing effect on slowing down the lone elephant's threats to dive behind a trap.  Also the rabbit steps are prophylactic against a horse advance.  Meanwhile we threaten chessandgo's exposed camel/rabbit combo in the center.  I rank it second only due to personal preference to avoid sharp lines.  I hate to race when I am not sure I will win the race, and moving our elephant out of the center commits us to racing if that's what chessandgo decides to do. Objectively, I have to admit that I expect we would be fine in the race, but why take a chance when we can be safer and outplay our opponent positionally?  
 
3. 3b hb7s ed4s ed3e Md2n
This move may be objectively the strongest.  Against RonWeasley I would play it in preference to my top two suggestions.  The reason we can afford to drag something is that chessandgo has already wasted two steps in the lone-elephant race: he switched files with his elephant and he advanced his dog to e2.  Furthermore, we are being efficient by ending our move next to two of his pieces, while he has to burn a step just to get next to any of ours.  Despite moving second, we are already at least equal in the dual-lone-elephant pull-something contest, so we can say we have won the opening.
 
On the other hand, when has chessandgo ever played a dual-lone-elephant opening?  You can bet money he is itching to launch an elephant-horse attack against c6.  Our elephant has moved two steps further from c6, making it that much harder for us to punish him when he does launch the attack.  I'm making a psychological calculation here: we don't have to induce chessandgo to expose a horse.  He is going to do so anyway, so I want to be in the best possible position to punish him when he does.
 
4. 3b hb7s ed4n dd8s ce8w
This move is not flexible enough to suit me.  On the one hand, nothing of ours is in danger, and it isn't easy for chessandgo to strengthen his position, but on the other hand, it is even harder for us to strengthen ours.  The dog on d7 not only blocks chessandgo's elephant from driving behind our traps, it also blocks our camel from switching wings.
 
5. 3b hb7s ed4s dd8s ce8w
Like 99of9, I don't like our position after he flips our dog.  We can flip his camel in return, but then he could push our dog to e5 and tuck his camel away on c3, and we have to protect our dog rather than pulling his central rabbit.  Other options for us are similarly slightly unsatisfactory.  This is the opposite of move #3 on my ballot: We are losing the dual-lone-elephant pull-something contest.  The difference is that presenting our dog on d7 for him to flip loses us several tempi.
 
6. 3b hb7s dd8s hg6s hg5s
This can't be correct unless the elephant-horse attack is sound in general.  If the elephant-horse attack were generally sound, then the opening would be all about who could get in the first shot.  This would be a great way for us to be the attacker rather than defender.  If you simply must play around the opponent's traps rather than around your own, then by all means take the fight to the other side.   However, even if some elephant-horse attacks are sound, I don't believe this one is.  I think chessandgo would get the advantage simply by bringing back his elephant to f4, taking our horse hostage.
 
7. 3b hb7s me7s dd8s dd7e
If we do this, chessandgo will drop whatever else he was planning, and push our camel to e4.  I don't see how we could emerge from that without giving up a camel hostage.  
 
8. 3b dd8s rc8e me7s df7w
This move exposes our camel too.  I rank it a teeny bit lower than #7 because it centralizes a rabbit and leaves c6 more open to a horse advance, particularly if our camel gets stuck on the other wing.  A horse on b6 is nice for us positionally, even if it isn't absolutely tactically necessary at the moment.
« Last Edit: May 2nd, 2007, 4:47pm by Fritzlein » IP Logged

jdb
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Re: Move 3
« Reply #20 on: May 2nd, 2007, 3:44pm »
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Nice summary Fritz. I'll just add my own thoughts.
 
Move 1)
It is a perfectly sound and safe move, but it doesn't threaten anything. The rabbit on d1 is safe and the camel on d2 is also safe. Silver's position is solid, but with this move *Gold* gets to decide what path the game is going to take.
 
Move 2)
Also sound, but this move has the advantage of being a little more forcing than move 1. Silver's elephant is touching gold's camel which limits gold's options.
 
Move 3) Again sound, and it is the most forcing of the three moves. Silver has threats against the dog and camel, and there is also the rabbit on d1 too.
 
I think I just ranked the first three moves in the opposite order as Fritz!  Shocked
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NIC1138
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Re: Move 3
« Reply #21 on: May 3rd, 2007, 12:00am »
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Allright! Last-hour candidate! (the rc8e one lost the primaries)
 
3b me7w ce8s df7s hb7s
 
It's a defensive one. The phant keeps centralized and the camel too. Plus it has a hb7s as a bonus.
 
If he flips our camel, no damage done. It's very easy to take it back to our lines, in a good position, because of the elephant in d4 and the dog in f6.
 
If he goes for a c6 E-H, the camel is one step nearer.  
 
The biggest advantage is that the cat is heading to where we want it. Unless you think it's too soon for that, and its place is still way back. I like putting them there early, because I usually can't do it in late game... (That is, when I last until late game! Smiley  )
 
I find it much better then pulling our rabbits to the middle... It's much more solid. I don't want this phant messing around in our base! And one reason for my insistence is that I love that T blocking formation!... Grin  
 
There is another similar possibility with a dog in place of the camel, but it looks bad to me.
« Last Edit: May 3rd, 2007, 12:06am by NIC1138 » IP Logged
RonWeasley
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Re: Move 3
« Reply #22 on: May 3rd, 2007, 7:45am »
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Since we've found good moves that don't leave our camel next to his E, I don't think I would prefer  3b me7w ce8s df7s hb7s.  After our m gets flipped we would have to commit it to a side and that's one of C&G's strategic objectives.
 
Like Fritz, I like the no-targets position of 3b hb7s cc7w dd8s dd7w.  While we don't gain tempo, we get a position where gold can't gain tempo on us.  And since both sides have their pieces defensively developed, the tempo battle becomes more about maintaining mobility of the major pieces.
 
I looked more at the tempo-gaining 3b hb7s ed4s ed3e Md2n.  We would actually be trading two lone-elephant attack steps for two steps developing minor pieces in our back lines.  If gold tries a race involving pushing camels back to traps followed by horses, we would have to use those two steps to develop our position then.  So the tempo gain may not really be there.
 
Something to think about for the future is whether we favor trades or not.  I think The Mob may have an advantage on a depleted board containing complicated goal and capture races.
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NIC1138
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Re: Move 3
« Reply #23 on: May 3rd, 2007, 8:34am »
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on May 3rd, 2007, 7:45am, RonWeasley wrote:
Since we've found good moves that don't leave our camel next to his E, I don't think I would prefer  3b me7w ce8s df7s hb7s.  After our m gets flipped we would have to commit it to a side and that's one of C&G's strategic objectives.
What do you mean?? If he flips the camel with 4w Ed6e md7s md6s Ee6w, we can safely return it to e7 with 4b md5e me5n ce7e me6n. Why is the camel "commited"  to something, if it's in the place it is already??
 
You can argue that you don't like taking the dog and cat forward, or that the cats are in the path of the camel, perhaps, but why is the camel in a bad position after this 4b?
 
There are no stones touching his elephant, as it would happen with the move you mentioned. Only instead of hiding the western cat under our horse, we are advancing the dog and cat of the east. To me, the question in not about the camel, who keeps pretty much centralized, but wether it's safe to put those two stones forward!...
 
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Re: Move 3
« Reply #24 on: May 3rd, 2007, 10:54am »
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Easy, NIC.  Yes, thanx for the insight.  The 4b you supply puts us back in a good position with gained tempo if we don't mind the dog on f6.
 
A worse 4w for us after 3b me7w ce8s df7s hb7s looks like a flip of our camel to c6.  That's not really bad but we either have to restrict our elephant mobility to guard against the flip to d5, or use steps to get the m able to move east if needed.  Somebody check this, but the dog on f6 looks like a target without a piece on e7 to prevent an eventual Ef6n df6w.  The H on g3 looks close too.  We can defend this but at the cost of tempo.
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Re: Move 3
« Reply #25 on: May 3rd, 2007, 11:04am »
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on May 2nd, 2007, 2:05pm, Fritzlein wrote:
3. 3b hb7s ed4s ed3e Md2n
 
On the other hand, when has chessandgo ever played a dual-lone-elephant opening? ... I'm making a psychological calculation here: we don't have to induce chessandgo to expose a horse. He is going to do so anyway, so I want to be in the best possible position to  
punish him when he does.

At first I liked this move. But I agree with Fritzlein's remarks. We might just be helping chessandgo by moving our elephant 2 steps away from the c6 trap.
 
on May 2nd, 2007, 2:05pm, Fritzlein wrote:
7. 3b hb7s me7s dd8s dd7e
If we do this, chessandgo will drop whatever else he was planning, and push our camel to e4.  

May be we can get our camel to the front without the threat of getting it hostaged with 3b hb7s me7s ce8s me6e. Or would that move leave our camel already too much decentralized?
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NIC1138
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Re: Move 3
« Reply #26 on: May 3rd, 2007, 12:31pm »
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on May 3rd, 2007, 10:54am, RonWeasley wrote:
Easy, NIC.
Woof! Woof!! Grrrrr...  
 Angry  Roll Eyes
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Re: Move 3
« Reply #27 on: May 3rd, 2007, 1:47pm »
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I'm going to start the voting tomorrow and close Monday morning.  There aren't so many suggested moves that we can't list them all.  I have no problem with multiple moves suggested by a single mobster.  In the future there might be a reason not to list them all, maybe there could be frivolous moves sent in by Peeves, but I don't expect a problem with that.
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Re: Move 3
« Reply #28 on: May 3rd, 2007, 2:54pm »
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I understand the reasons behind 3b hb7s ed4s ra7e rh7w and 3b hb7s ed4s ed3e Md2n better, but have a question.
 
Even if Ned's proposal 3b hb7s ed4s ed3e Md2n makes a lot of sense, couldn't that be what chessandgo is expecting?
 
Could he be expecting this move for answering something like: 4w Cc2e Db1n Db2e Md3w (with better style surely)? Something to get ready for an elephant-camel attack. I don't see what an elephant-horse attack could win against another horse, but the camel could push the defending horse and require the elephant for defense.
 
Does that make sense?
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The_Jeh
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Re: Move 3
« Reply #29 on: May 3rd, 2007, 4:02pm »
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on May 3rd, 2007, 1:47pm, RonWeasley wrote:
I'm going to start the voting tomorrow and close Monday morning.

 
That is necessary now, but I hope in the future we can make a few moves using little or no reserve time.  We don't want to fight to move 75 only to miss a forced win because we don't have enough time to analyze.
 
Also, perhaps there is a psychological factor to consider, but I think we should tend towards playing the board, not the man.
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