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   Author  Topic: Move 4  (Read 2934 times)
jdb
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Re: Move 4
« Reply #15 on: May 27th, 2007, 8:18am »
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How about
4b  4b ed3n ed4w ec4w dd8n
 
Putting the camel on d7 looks troubling since gold can then threaten the camel and silver is only threatening a horse. With the dog on d7 silver gets to threaten the stronger piece. If gold flips the dog, silver pushes the horse onto the trap. If gold goes after the dog, it can run to the a file since there is no horse on that side to assist the camel.
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Fritzlein
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Re: Move 4
« Reply #16 on: May 27th, 2007, 11:16am »
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Well, chessandgo already busted some of my analysis simply by playing a good move in my current postal tournament game against him.  If we play either 4b ed3n ed4w ec4w rb7w, as I suggested, or 4b ed3n ed4w ec4w dd8n as jdb suggested, then chessandgo can equalize with 5w Ed6s Ed5w Hb5w Ec5w.  Maybe I missed something, but in my postal game I felt compelled to play my horse to the edge of the board to block his horse, leaving chessandgo the option of creating a symmetrical and very even position.  For example
 
4b ed3n ed4w ec4w rb7w
5w Ed6s Ed5w Hb5w Ec5w
5b hb6w rb7w cc7w me7w
6w Ha5s Eb5w Eb5e ha6s
 
and now we have interlocking horse hostages with no advantage to either side that I can discern.
 
I think jdb's move is even less attractive, because chessandgo not only has the equalizing line, he also can try
 
4b ed3n ed4w ec4w dd8n
5w Ed6s db7s Ed5w db6s
 
playing for an outright advantage.  Given that I now think my former favorite move only leads to equality, I want to take a harder look at moving our elephant to c5 and camel to d7.  JDB and I looked at it a bit this morning, and I still feel that chessandgo's only option for equality it to retreat.  Given that he doesn't like to retreat, he may get himself in trouble if we play it.  Also, I should look more at whether pulling the camel gives us an advantage after all, because it seems chessandgo has a way to wriggle free against either horse-freezing move.
 
I hope that chessandgo doesn't refute all my plans over the board.  I would hate to have to admit I'm wrong about early horse advances.  Tongue
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JacquesB
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Re: Move 4
« Reply #17 on: May 27th, 2007, 1:34pm »
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I will post my first proposal:
 
Our situation is: chessandgo has started a timid attack. I mean timid in the sense it can be easily undone and it is not very strong because it is done by a horse against a defending horse. As Fritzlein states, the attack probably aims 4b ed3e Md2n Md3n ee3w, 5w Hb5e Hc5n cc7e Hc6n which would be annoying for us. Now, my analysis is: Why go back with our elephant (3 steps) to avoid it freeing his camel at the same time, if we can avoid it with just 4b dd8s xxxx yyyy zzzz (1 step) and keeping our annoying (for him) elephant where it is? I don't think he will pull our dog in the next move, because where would he, and because it is a ignoble task for an elephant losing steps with no possibility of direct capture and a hostage is way too unbalanced. The additional 3 steps could be used in preparing for attack: 4b dd8s me7s ce8s me6e That's my proposal. It avoids the timid horse threat, makes our camel a lot more powerful than his and, when our elephant leaves its place, it could move in just one step to e3 in support of our attack in the g and f columns. Our camel is not exposed where it is after my move, because the worst it can suffer is a one move pull to e6 which is pointless. In this position we have the initiative and our next move may be an attack more frightening than 4w. I the meantime, chessandgo cannot do much harm considering he will have to retreat his elephant to deadlock our attack on the f3 trap. He could probably postpone our plans placing his elephant on f5, but that would cost him 3 steps and we could leave a better shape for us after a defensive 5 mf6w xxxx yyyy zzzz (just 1 step).
 
I still have a lot to learn and I don't dislike critics at all, please, don't hesitate.
 
My proposal: 4b dd8s me7s ce8s me6e
 
Jacques.
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RonWeasley
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Re: Move 4
« Reply #18 on: May 27th, 2007, 1:51pm »
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I just looked at 4b ed3n Md2n ed4w Md3n.
 
Gold can equalize by retreating E and H or by advancing a D and retreating M.  This could simply accomplish getting our e closer to the b5H by two steps.  If the M doesn't retreat I think our e can eventually pin it against the h file.  If the M advances to c5 I think pushing it onto c6 eventually has it becoming our hostage, maybe also the b5H.
 
So I think this move gets the e closer to the b5H, which is only valuable if we think we can eventually bring our m over to stick to that H in a good way.  We want to avoid doing this if we think the H won't get pinned and we only succeed in commiting our m to the west side.
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Fritzlein
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Re: Move 4
« Reply #19 on: May 27th, 2007, 7:51pm »
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on May 27th, 2007, 1:34pm, JacquesB wrote:
I still have a lot to learn and I don't dislike critics at all, please, don't hesitate.
 
My proposal: 4b dd8s me7s ce8s me6e

I would be worried that he would flip our dog to d5 with his elephant.
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99of9
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Re: Move 4
« Reply #20 on: May 28th, 2007, 8:18am »
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on May 25th, 2007, 1:59pm, Fritzlein wrote:
Right now my ballot is
 
1. 4b ed3n ed4w ec4w rb7w
2. 4b ed3n Md2n ed4w Md3n
3. 4b ed3n ed4n ed5w me7w
4. 4b ed3e Md2n Md3n ee3w
5. 4b ed3n ed4w ec4w me7w

I may not get a chance to take a proper look at this position.  Your top 3 all look ok to me.  Another few considerations to throw into the mix (no particular order):
 
4b hg6s hg5s ed3e dd8s
4b me7w cc7s md7w ed3n
4b ed3n ed4w ec4w
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JacquesB
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Re: Move 4
« Reply #21 on: May 28th, 2007, 12:42pm »
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on May 27th, 2007, 7:51pm, Fritzlein wrote:

I would be worried that he would flip our dog to d5 with his elephant.

 
Do you mean:
 
4b dd8s me7s ce8s me6e
5w Ed6e dd7s dd6s Ee6w ?
 
I don't see the danger. Gold achieves nothing. What could the elephant do with that dog with our e at d3? It is blocking its own way back if we attack.
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arimaa_master
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Re: Move 4
« Reply #22 on: May 29th, 2007, 2:05am »
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Ok, I am not quite happy with any of given proposals - so my next (so far my favourite) proposal is here: 4b ed3n Md2n ed4n Md3n
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JacquesB
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Re: Move 4
« Reply #23 on: May 30th, 2007, 11:42am »
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Hey, that was a short debate. We are voting. I just wanted to say that I won't vote my own proposal Wink I trust the masters. I will vote what I think is best among the moves proposed by more experienced players.
 
As always, thank you Fritzlein for your complete analysis and I would like to see other players from the top ten sharing their thoughts with the mob. More than just moves (11 sounds too much for me, you could remove my proposal safely) I expected some analysis that could reduce the list to 3 or 4, sometimes even less.
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RonWeasley
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Re: Move 4
« Reply #24 on: May 30th, 2007, 12:46pm »
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In looking at the ed3n ed4w ec4w xxxx moves, I usually end up with a eb4 Ha4 Eb5 ha5 interlocking horse position.  The rb7w variation opens b7 as a place for our camel to grab/store the H, but I think gold will easily avoid that.  Putting something on d7 sets up a horse frame, but gold can easily avoid that too, going to the a-file with the H.
 
In looking at the camel pull with e->c4, I usually end up with our camel sticking to the gold H unless gold plays careful defense.  So I like the camel pull move better as being safe for silver and more risky for gold.
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Fritzlein
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Re: Move 4
« Reply #25 on: May 31st, 2007, 8:39am »
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on May 30th, 2007, 11:42am, JacquesB wrote:
As always, thank you Fritzlein for your complete analysis

It was my pleasure comment at length on those five moves.  Sorry I didn't give a more complete analysis of the six other moves folks suggested.  I suddenly got a little busy, and now it looks I will also lose Player of the Month by one game!  So is life...
 
Quote:
Hey, that was a short debate. We are voting. I just wanted to say that I won't vote my own proposal Wink

Why not vote for your own proposal if no one can convincingly refute it?  I'm putting it low on my ballot, but that shouldn't be enough reason for you to do the same.  You should make someone explain properly before changing your mind.
 
Quote:
More than just moves (11 sounds too much for me, you could remove my proposal safely) I expected some analysis that could reduce the list to 3 or 4, sometimes even less.

Yes, I would be happy to remove some of my suggestions as well.  Are the advocates of including every suggestion on the ballot still firm in their convictions now that we are up to eleven suggested moves?  As I voted, I felt that only the best four left us even or better, whereas the other seven all left us in a worse position by varying degrees.  If one of those wins "by accident" it will be a blow to the team.
 
That said, a more active discussion could have the same benefit as winnowing the moves.  Indeed, it would be hard to cut down the number of moves on the ballot except via more discussion. Undecided
« Last Edit: May 31st, 2007, 2:08pm by Fritzlein » IP Logged

99of9
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Re: Move 4
« Reply #26 on: May 31st, 2007, 8:25pm »
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on May 31st, 2007, 8:39am, Fritzlein wrote:
As I voted, I felt that only the best four left us even or better, whereas the other seven all left us in a worse position by varying degrees.  If one of those wins "by accident" it will be a blow to the team.

I had the opposite experience.  There were about 3 moves that I actively disliked (including one of my own suggestions - sorry about that!), but the other 8 were all tempting.  Maybe my thinking is influenced by the fact that I am currently studying a glassy atomic system where there are many configurations which have near identically low energy (low energy = high score).
 
I admit that our discussion was not very extensive this week, and that may make our choice inferior, but I still think it's good to have plenty of options on the table.
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RonWeasley
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Re: Move 4
« Reply #27 on: Jun 1st, 2007, 7:05am »
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TheMob chooses ed3n Hd2n ed4w Hd3n!  11 of 15 voted.  3 voted after the initial deadline of 5:00pm EDT yesterday, but I'm glad I waited to get those votes.  From the discussion, I expected e->b5, r->a7 to do better, but maybe there was something unsettling about moving the rabbit back to a7.
 
At this point the number of reasonable moves, good and bad, is increasing.  I don't want to discourage discussion of moves that may turn out bad after examination.  I suggest that in the future, if a mobster believes that a suggested move has been refuted, state that belief.  If nobody objects, I will take that move off my list before setting up the vote.  It's personally more useful to me if a mobster finds a problem with a suggested move so I can look more closely at the others.  Otherwise, I will run all moves that at least one mobster wants on the ballot.
 
C&G relates that he is not very good at creating trash talk.  He requests we avoid saying things about his mother (maybe she's helping him make his moves).
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99of9
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Re: Move 4
« Reply #28 on: Jun 1st, 2007, 7:13am »
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on Jun 1st, 2007, 7:05am, RonWeasley wrote:
I suggest that in the future, if a mobster believes that a suggested move has been refuted, state that belief.  If nobody objects, I will take that move off my list before setting up the vote.

 
That's a good idea, I support that wholeheartedly.
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NIC1138
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Re: Move 4
« Reply #29 on: Jun 1st, 2007, 8:08am »
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on Jun 1st, 2007, 7:05am, RonWeasley wrote:
TheMob chooses ed3n Hd2n ed4w Hd3n!
Do you mean 'M'?
 
Quote:
C&G relates that he is not very good at creating trash talk.  He requests we avoid saying things about his mother (maybe she's helping him make his moves).
Hehe Smiley  Gustavo Kuerten, the brazilian tennis player, if often helped by his granny, who watches all the games, and of his adversries, and gives him the hints!!...
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