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   Author  Topic: Move 11  (Read 3180 times)
Fritzlein
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Re: Move 11
« Reply #15 on: Aug 17th, 2007, 11:25am »
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on Aug 17th, 2007, 8:47am, 99of9 wrote:
I'm happy to try to answer variations if you are worried about this.

Yeah, let's play variations. Sometimes looking too far ahead is futile, since surely one player or the other will deviate before then, but in a tactical line like this it is nice to get a flavor for the possibilities.
 
Quote:
One thing we have up our sleeve is that we are threatening the dog, so he can't settle for attacking our cat at any stage, because he doesn't want a cD trade.

But he will likely get a chance to attack some piece (perhaps the cat) in three steps while retreating his dog with one step.  In your line
 
Quote:
11b ed4w ec4w hb6w rb7w
12w Eb5e Ec5e Ed5w md6s
12b dd8s dd7s md5e me5n
13w Ec5e Ed5e Ee5w me6s
13b ce7s me5e mf5n dd6n

14w Ed5n ce6s Ed6e Db3s
 
Now his cat push should be worth more than our rabbit pull.  All we can do to retain the initiative is pull the gold horse, getting us back to the class of position we had before chessandgo retreated, except now our camel is cut off from the action and our cat is exposed.  I'm guessing that with our elephant forced to abandon the rabbit pull to take a not-very-threatening horse hostage, it will ultimately be chessandgo who gets the first rabbit pull in the ensuing wrestling.
 
If we agree Gold is better in the final position, we need to find a way for Silver to deviate earlier.  If you think Silver is ahead at the end, some powerful continuation for Silver might convince me, but also it could simply be a strategic judgment that more lines won't easily clarify, and we'll all just have to vote our instincts.
« Last Edit: Aug 17th, 2007, 5:45pm by Fritzlein » IP Logged

mdk
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Re: Move 11
« Reply #16 on: Aug 17th, 2007, 11:57pm »
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regarding 11b ed4s ed3e ee3w De2n
 
on Aug 16th, 2007, 7:41pm, jdb wrote:

 
A) Pull the rabbit
12w hb6e Eb5n Eb6s rb7s
13b De3n ed3e De4n ee3n
 
I dont think gold can safely pull the rabbit.
 
B) Flip the dog
12w Eb5e hb6s hb5s Ec5w
13b De3n ed3e De4n ee3n
 
This looks good for silver too.
 
C) Retreat the dog and also do something else
12w Md2e De3e Db3s Hc3w
 
To me this looks OK for gold, but maybe there is still some possibilty for silver?

 
I had the same analysis for parts A and B. As for part C I was thinking of something along the lines of 12b ed3e hg6s hg5s hg4w
« Last Edit: Aug 17th, 2007, 11:59pm by mdk » IP Logged
Fritzlein
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Re: Move 11
« Reply #17 on: Aug 18th, 2007, 12:20pm »
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on Aug 17th, 2007, 11:57pm, mdk wrote:

[edited...]
11b ed4s ed3e ee3w De2n
12w Md2e De3e Db3s Hc3w
12b ed3e hg6s hg5s hg4w

If he flips our horse on 13w, we have to abandon the EH attack, right?  Although our position may still be OK.
 
on Aug 16th, 2007, 7:41pm, jdb wrote:

C) Retreat the dog and also do something else
12w Md2e De3e Db3s Hc3w
 
To me this looks OK for gold, but maybe there is still some possibilty for silver?

Alternatively the "something else" could be pulling our horse two squares with 12w Md2e De3e Ec5e hc6s.  Is mdk's EH attack also OK after that?
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Re: Move 11
« Reply #18 on: Aug 18th, 2007, 12:35pm »
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The ballot so far:
 
11b hg6e hh6s hh5s hh4s (eastern horse charge)
11b ed4s ed3e ee3w De2n (pull central dog)
11b ed4w ec4w hb6w rb7w (shift EHR west)
11b hb6w rb7w cc7w md6n (shift HRC west, retreat M)
11b ed4w ec4w Hc3n md6n (pull horse, retreat camel)
11b ed4w ec4w Hc3n dd8s (pull horse, advance dog)
11b ed4w ec4w Hc3n md6e (pull horse, camel east)
11b ed4w ec4n Hc3n md6e (pull horse, E north, M east)
 
Reactions, rankings, responses, variations, analysis, comments, corrections, and additions welcome.  This may be a more divided vote than some recent ones, so extra discussion is all the more important.
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mdk
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Re: Move 11
« Reply #19 on: Aug 18th, 2007, 12:58pm »
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on Aug 18th, 2007, 12:20pm, Fritzlein wrote:
.  
 [edited...]  
 11b ed4s ed3e ee3w De2n  
 12w Md2e De3e Db3s Hc3w  
 12b ed3e hg6s hg5s hg4w  
 
 If he flips our horse on 13w, we have to abandon the EH attack, right?  Although our position may still be OK.

 
I was thinking for 13b hf4e Df3n ee3w xxxx. Perhaps either 13b hf4e Df3n ee3w md6e  or 13b hf4e Df3n ee3w rb7w
 
on Aug 18th, 2007, 12:20pm, Fritzlein wrote:
.
 
Alternatively the "something else" could be pulling our horse two squares with 12w Md2e De3e Ec5e hc6s.  Is mdk's EH attack also OK after that?

 
Well in this case one possibility is 12b rb7s hb5s Db3w hb4s. Or maybe 12b rb7s hb5s Db3s hb4s.
« Last Edit: Aug 18th, 2007, 1:08pm by mdk » IP Logged
UruramTururam
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Re: Move 11
« Reply #20 on: Aug 18th, 2007, 4:00pm »
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After reading all the analyzes here I really think we should get some benefits from golden E positioned quite far from the center. Positioning our own e on c5 forces gold to go around it.  
 
And any move that includes ed4w ec3w Hc3n can be countered with a move containing Eb5e Hc4s Ec5s leaving our elephant decentralized.
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Re: Move 11
« Reply #21 on: Aug 18th, 2007, 5:53pm »
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on Aug 18th, 2007, 12:35pm, Fritzlein wrote:
The ballot so far:
...
11b hb6w rb7w cc7w md6n (shift HRC west, retreat M)
...
 
Reactions, rankings, responses, variations, analysis, comments, corrections, and additions welcome.  This may be a more divided vote than some recent ones, so extra discussion is all the more important.

 
This move worries me. How do we respond to 12w Eb5n cb7e Eb6n Rh2w? Also I can't find an adequate response to 12w Eb5n Db3n Hc3n  Hc4n.
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Re: Move 11
« Reply #22 on: Aug 18th, 2007, 9:35pm »
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on Aug 18th, 2007, 4:00pm, UruramTururam wrote:
And any move that includes ed4w ec3w Hc3n can be countered with a move containing Eb5e Hc4s Ec5s leaving our elephant decentralized.

After these two moves, I'd like to flip his dog from b3 to b5.  Of course it depends on the fourth step of each of us on the move before, but in some cases threatening the dog could compensate for the decentralized position of our elephant, especially if chessandgo himself has no immediate threats on the part of the board our elephant can't reach.
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Re: Move 11
« Reply #23 on: Aug 19th, 2007, 9:38am »
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on Aug 18th, 2007, 12:58pm, mdk wrote:

[edit...]
11b ed4s ed3e ee3w De2n  
12w Md2e De3e Eb5e hb6s
 
Well in this case one possibility is 12b rb7s hb5s Db3w hb4s. Or maybe 12b rb7s hb5s Db3s hb4s.

Hmmm... that line is quite committal, voluntarily advancing a rabbit as well as the horse.  My general experience is that when an EH attack is defended, the most it produces is a rabbit pull, so advancing a rabbit in order to get EH rolling is investing a lot of your future gains.  Unless you are angling for a swarming attack?  After
 
11b ed4s ed3e ee3w De2n  
12w Md2e De3e Eb5e hb6s
12b rb7s hb5s Db3s hb4s
13w Ec5w Eb5s rb6s Eb4e
 
How do you feel about our prospects?  Are you thinking maybe EHMR swarm?
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Re: Move 11
« Reply #24 on: Aug 19th, 2007, 4:40pm »
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on Aug 19th, 2007, 9:38am, Fritzlein wrote:

Hmmm... that line is quite committal, voluntarily advancing a rabbit as well as the horse.  My general experience is that when an EH attack is defended, the most it produces is a rabbit pull, so advancing a rabbit in order to get EH rolling is investing a lot of your future gains.  Unless you are angling for a swarming attack?  After
 
11b ed4s ed3e ee3w De2n  
12w Md2e De3e Eb5e hb6s
12b rb7s hb5s Db3s hb4s
13w Ec5w Eb5s rb6s Eb4e
 
How do you feel about our prospects?  Are you thinking maybe EHMR swarm?

 
Well this was basically along the lines of what I was thinking although I  realize that such a continuation is unlikely to be popular among the mob.  
 
However, after looking at the position again I think I have found a continuation which is less committal and improves our position. Consider the position after
 
11b ed4s ed3e ee3w De2n  
12w Md2e De3e Eb5e hb6s
12b hg6e hh6s hh5s hh4s  
 
This is similar to the position after simply playing 11b hg6e hh6s hh5s hh4s  as we are guaranteed a rabbit pull but chessandgo's phant is no longer in a position where it can respond on the next turn by pulling a rabbit.
 
further analysis, comments, and continued concerns about my 11b are all appreciated and i will do my best to respond.  
 
 
« Last Edit: Aug 19th, 2007, 4:46pm by mdk » IP Logged
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Re: Move 11
« Reply #25 on: Aug 19th, 2007, 5:18pm »
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Sorry I haven't had time to reply.  I hadn't thought of Fritz's suggested reply to my line, and haven't had a chance to look for counters.
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Re: Move 11
« Reply #26 on: Aug 21st, 2007, 8:25am »
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Uh oh.  We're twelve hours into the voting, and only three Mob members have voted.  One of them is me.  Let's not follow up an active discussion with low turnout at the polls.  You have 24 hours left (until 8/22 13:00 GMT) to do your civic duty.  (Or should I say rather, your disorderly, riotous duty?)
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Re: Move 11
« Reply #27 on: Aug 21st, 2007, 11:15am »
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Votes came in slowly for the last few moves too.  This vote looks harder than the others, so it may be even slower.
 
I ended up wanting to get our m out of range from the E if we pulled the horse.  Otherwise I kind of liked jdb's eastern camel charge.  I think it could pull a rabbit before it has to come back.  Gold's exposed D makes defending against our h just a bit harder.
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Re: Move 11
« Reply #28 on: Aug 21st, 2007, 12:55pm »
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on Aug 21st, 2007, 11:15am, RonWeasley wrote:
Votes came in slowly for the last few moves too.  This vote looks harder than the others, so it may be even slower.

Up to seven votes now.  I hadn't considered that in the first 12 hours of voting most folks in this hemisphere were asleep.
 
I agree with you that the horse charge, albeit counter-intuitive, actually seems to work pretty well in this circumstance.  If that more had gotten more analysis, I might even have promoted it to first, but I chickened out under time pressure.  The power of this weird-looking move is a reminder to me not to play by my gut, but rather keep an open mind, since each position is a unique confluence of factors.
 
I'm glad you're back in town, Ron, so you can resume coordination of this unruly bunch.  Then I'll have more time to try to survive chessandgo's crushing swarm in my postal tournament game.
« Last Edit: Aug 21st, 2007, 12:57pm by Fritzlein » IP Logged

Fritzlein
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Re: Move 11
« Reply #29 on: Aug 21st, 2007, 8:43pm »
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Oh, fiddlesticks.  I just closed the voting and moved on behalf of the Mob, and then realized that it had only been 24 hours, not 36 hours as promised.  Embarassed
 
If I had merely closed the voting and not actually made the move, it would seem reasonable to delay and re-vote.  Unfortunately, now that I have actually played the move it would seem outlandish to ask chessandgo for a takeback.  I fear the Mob will just have to abide by my mistake.  Embarassed Embarassed
 
On the brighter side, Ron is back now, so the Mob will henceforth again have a coordinator who is not a doofus.
 
Also on the bright side, eleven Mobsters voted on this move, up from nine last move.  Hopefully few or none of the remaining eligible six were actually going to vote in the next twelve hours.
 
For better or for worse, this raucous crowd decided on the wildest-looking of the eight choices, by a slim margin over my favored play-it-safe approach.  We haven't published any analysis for the horse charge, so it is totally a shot in the dark, but the Mob wanted it that way, so all I can say is
 
BANZAI!!!
« Last Edit: Aug 21st, 2007, 8:44pm by Fritzlein » IP Logged

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