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   Author  Topic: Move 17  (Read 3036 times)
Soter
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Move 17
« on: Nov 7th, 2007, 2:45pm »
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Thread open for notifications and predictions.
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Fritzlein
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Re: Move 17
« Reply #1 on: Nov 7th, 2007, 10:12pm »
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Here is the branch of the tree we played, on the off chance that chessandgo plays one of the two moves we analyzed.  (Although if we did anticipate his move, it will be the first time in a while.)

16b Md3s ed4s ha5e dd8s
.    17w Ed5n mc5e md5e Ed6s
.    .    17b hb5s Dc4n hb4e dd7s
.    .    .    18w me5e Ed5e mf5s Ee5e
.    .    .    .    18b ed3w ec3e Cc2n Cc3x ed3e
.    .    .    18w me5s Ed5e me4s Ede5s
.    .    .    .    18b De2s me3s ed3e dd6s  
.    .    .    .    .    19w rb3w Hb2n Ee4w Rc1e
.    .    .    .    .    .    19b Cf2n me2e mf2e ee3w
.    .    .    .    .    19w rb3w Hb2n Ee4w Rg1e
.    .    17b ce7s me5e mf5n hb5s
.    .    .    18w rb3e Hb2n Ed5n Cc2w
.    .    .    18w Ed5e Ee5e Ef5e mf6s
.    .    .    .    18b ce6s mf5n Dc4n hb4e
.    .    .    18w Ed5e Ee5e Ef5w mf6s
.    .    .    .     18b hg6s mf5n Dc4n hb4e
.    17w Ed5n mc5e rb3e Hb2n
.    .    17b hb5e md5s Dc4w md4w
.    .    .    18w Ed6s Ed5n hc5e Db4w
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Fritzlein
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Re: Move 17
« Reply #2 on: Nov 10th, 2007, 1:44pm »
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After looking a bit further at the position, I am less afraid of chessandgo flipping our camel.  We'll find our way through the tactics together.  I think if he beats us it will be positionally, so I looked again at the more quiet line:
 
16b Md3s ed4s ha5e dd8s
.    17w Ed5n mc5e rb3e Hb2n
.    .    17b hb5e md5s Dc4w md4w
.    .    .    18w Ed6s Ed5n hc5e Db4w
 
This allows us a very interesting try with 18b mc4w Hb3w mb4s rc8e.  What do you all think of our position after that?
« Last Edit: Nov 11th, 2007, 9:03am by Fritzlein » IP Logged

arimaa_master
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Re: Move 17
« Reply #3 on: Nov 11th, 2007, 4:48am »
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on Nov 10th, 2007, 1:44pm, Fritzlein wrote:
After looking a bit further at the position, I am less afraid of chessandgo flipping our camel.  We'll find our way through the tactics together.  I think if he beats us it will be positionally, so I looked again at the more quite line:
 
16b Md3s ed4s ha5e dd8s
.    17w Ed5n mc5e rb3e Hb2n
.    .    17b hb5e md5s Dc4w md4w
.    .    .    18w Ed6s Ed5n hc5e Db4w
 
This allows us a very interesting try with 18b mc4w Hb3w mb4s rc8e.  What do you all think of our position after that?

 
 
Yeah, I must admit (after careful exploration) that the camel flip is not dangerous for us at all (we could be slightly better there, though it remains very wild).
 
 
In this line:
 
16b Md3s ed4s ha5e dd8s
.    17w Ed5n mc5e rb3e Hb2n
.    .    17b hb5e md5s Dc4w md4w
.    .    .    18w Ed6s Ed5n hc5e Db4w
.    .    .    .    18b mc4w Hb3w mb4s rc8e
 
it is even more unclear
 
I was thinking about key move
 
19w hd5s Ed6s Ed5w Ec5s - after that we must be aware of  
camel hostage so:
 
19b mb3s rc3w Cc2n mb2e (what else?)
 
20w rb3n Cc3w Cb3s Ha3e (and I don´t know what to think about this position - what could be the plan?).
« Last Edit: Nov 11th, 2007, 4:49am by arimaa_master » IP Logged
arimaa_master
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Re: Move 17
« Reply #4 on: Nov 11th, 2007, 5:10am »
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I was thinking about another 17w too:
 
17w Ed5e mc5e Ee5n md5e
 
but after some fireworks:
 
17b hb5s rb3w hb4s Dc4w
18w me5s Ee6s me4s Ee5s
18b De2s me3s Cf2n me2e
19w Ee4e Cf3w Ef4s Rc1e
19b hg6s hg5s Rh5w hg4w
20w Rg5n Rg6e mf2e Ef3s
20b hb3e hf4w hc3n Cc2n Cc3x
21w Ef2n mg2w Ef3n mf2n mf3x
21b ed3w Md2n ec3w Md3w Mc3x
22w Ef4n he4e Rd1n Rd2n
22b dd7s hc4s hc3s Rd3w Rc3x
 
 
we are clearly better
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Re: Move 17
« Reply #5 on: Nov 11th, 2007, 5:18am »
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on Nov 11th, 2007, 5:10am, arimaa_master wrote:
I was thinking about another 17w too:
 
17w Ed5e mc5e Ee5n md5e

 
Funny you should mention this move. It happens to be the one my nascent bot prefers right now, so I'm sure chessandgo won't be playing it. Tongue
 
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Re: Move 17
« Reply #6 on: Nov 11th, 2007, 9:15am »
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on Nov 11th, 2007, 5:10am, arimaa_master wrote:
I was thinking about another 17w too:
 
17w Ed5e mc5e Ee5n md5e

It seems that after the camel pull, just as after the camel flip, we can go after the exposed dog with 17b hb5s Dc4n hb4e dd7s.  It seems that chessandgo's elephant has fewer options on e6 than on d5.  Or is there some way he is better in this line than in the camel flip line in the tree?
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Re: Move 17
« Reply #7 on: Nov 11th, 2007, 9:19am »
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on Nov 11th, 2007, 5:18am, Janzert wrote:
Funny you should mention this move. It happens to be the one my nascent bot prefers right now, so I'm sure chessandgo won't be playing it. Tongue
 
Janzert

Hey, I'm glad you have a nascent bot.  Then there will be at least something new under the sun in the 2008 Computer Championship.
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Re: Move 17
« Reply #8 on: Nov 11th, 2007, 9:36am »
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on Nov 11th, 2007, 4:48am, arimaa_master wrote:

16b Md3s ed4s ha5e dd8s
.    17w Ed5n mc5e rb3e Hb2n
.    .    17b hb5e md5s Dc4w md4w
.    .    .    18w Ed6s Ed5n hc5e Db4w
.    .    .    .    18b mc4w Hb3w mb4s rc8e
 
it is even more unclear
 
I was thinking about key move
 
19w hd5s Ed6s Ed5w Ec5s - after that we must be aware of camel hostage so:

Yes, that 19w does look like a critical challenge.  What about 19b mb3n rc3w rb3s hd4n?  Our camel has not escaped, but with the configuration of the pieces in that corner is it very difficult for Gold to take a useful hostage without giving up his dog, since our camel prevents his dog from retreating.  For example:
 
20w Da4n Ha3e mb4w Ec4w
20b hd5w hc5w dd7s dd6s
 
If he keeps our camel on b4, our threat is hd5w dd7s dd6w hd5w to endanger the dog.
 
Giving up our camel hostage like that is tricky, and may result in disadvantage in lines I haven't looked at.  I just wanted to offer it up for consideration.
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Re: Move 17
« Reply #9 on: Nov 14th, 2007, 11:50am »
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on Nov 11th, 2007, 9:15am, Fritzlein wrote:

It seems that after the camel pull, just as after the camel flip, we can go after the exposed dog with 17b hb5s Dc4n hb4e dd7s.  It seems that chessandgo's elephant has fewer options on e6 than on d5.  Or is there some way he is better in this line than in the camel flip line in the tree?

 
Yeah you are right, we are good there too.
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Re: Move 17
« Reply #10 on: Nov 14th, 2007, 12:14pm »
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on Nov 11th, 2007, 9:36am, Fritzlein wrote:

Yes, that 19w does look like a critical challenge.  What about 19b mb3n rc3w rb3s hd4n?  Our camel has not escaped, but with the configuration of the pieces in that corner is it very difficult for Gold to take a useful hostage without giving up his dog, since our camel prevents his dog from retreating.  For example:
 
20w Da4n Ha3e mb4w Ec4w
20b hd5w hc5w dd7s dd6s
 
If he keeps our camel on b4, our threat is hd5w dd7s dd6w hd5w to endanger the dog.
 
Giving up our camel hostage like that is tricky, and may result in disadvantage in lines I haven't looked at.  I just wanted to offer it up for consideration.

 
I think we should be worrying about  
 
20w Ec4n mb4e Ha3e Da4e
 
aren´t we going into trouble with our camel there?
 
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Re: Move 17
« Reply #11 on: Nov 14th, 2007, 3:07pm »
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on Nov 11th, 2007, 5:18am, Janzert wrote:

Funny you should mention this move. It happens to be the one my nascent bot prefers right now, so I'm sure chessandgo won't be playing it. Tongue

No matter how bad they are I don't think we should involve bots in this game.
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Re: Move 17
« Reply #12 on: Nov 15th, 2007, 3:14pm »
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I apologize for any impropriety in using a bot to look at a position. My only experience before in a one vs. world type game was a chess game where the world used extensive computer analysis. I made the assumption that this was the common state of such things.
 
Obviously I haven't used the bot for any serious analysis nor do I think it could be used as such, I have run four or five of the then current positions through it just to see what it would come up with. The move mentioned here was the only one so far that was even close to reasonable to my eyes.
 
I see Fritzlein posed the question to Chessandgo and he didn't have a problem with it, but I'll refrain from running any future positions through the bot if people here would rather I not.
 
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Re: Move 17
« Reply #13 on: Nov 15th, 2007, 3:45pm »
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I haven't been worried about this.  Current bots are so inferior to chessandgo that it would be a big mistake to depend on them.  Contributors to TheMob are also way ahead of all the bots.  From the recent comments, it doesn't seem like anybody's going to get influenced by what move a bot would make.
 
This may change when we get to endgame.  If we collectively agree not to consult the bots during move selection, let's make sure we remember that when chessandgo pushes us into a very sharp position.
 
I think we would all be interested in a bot's analysis, especially Janzert's shiny new one, but only after we have commited to our own selections.  I personally am enjoying how the various muggle suggestions ebb and flow as the discussion proceeds.  I would also enjoy seeing how a bot would have handled a critical position a few moves ago, as long as that information doesn't influence the selection of the current move.
 
Hmm ... it's possible that an opportunity can go unseen for many moves, and what I say above could be quite wrong in theory.  Maybe it's best if we consult the bots after the game is over.
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Re: Move 17
« Reply #14 on: Nov 15th, 2007, 5:06pm »
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I am in favor of unrestricted use of bots during the game. Given that chessandgo has no objection, what is the argument against?
 
Maybe we will need a separate vote on this. Wink  Of course I am happy to abide by the decision of the Mob.
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