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   Move 17
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   Author  Topic: Move 17  (Read 2768 times)
The_Jeh
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Re: Move 17
« Reply #15 on: Nov 15th, 2007, 9:54pm »
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As long as bots can't vote, I don't care.  
 
But what does this say about postal games in general? They're not secure from bot consultation. In those regular games, I would say bot consultation is cheating, just like it would be in chess.
 
In this special game, it is all right to use bots, because they can be considered non-voting mob members. However, because our opponent is supposed to be Chessandgo alone, "The One," it is wrong for him to use bots.  
 
That being said, let's keep bot use to a minimum. We get more mental exercise without them.
« Last Edit: Nov 15th, 2007, 10:07pm by The_Jeh » IP Logged
99of9
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Re: Move 17
« Reply #16 on: Nov 16th, 2007, 12:21am »
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on Nov 15th, 2007, 3:45pm, RonWeasley wrote:
I haven't been worried about this.  Current bots are so inferior to chessandgo that it would be a big mistake to depend on them.  Contributors to TheMob are also way ahead of all the bots.  From the recent comments, it doesn't seem like anybody's going to get influenced by what move a bot would make.

That's all true at the moment.
 
Quote:
This may change when we get to endgame.  If we collectively agree not to consult the bots during move selection, let's make sure we remember that when chessandgo pushes us into a very sharp position.

This is what I'm worried about.  I have no doubt that bomb can usually spot forced wins before I can.  Fritz has shown some examples where it can spot them before chessandgo.  I would hate to see this game decided by which team is allowed to use bots.  As others have mentioned, it's cheating in a regular postal (for good reason in my opinion).
 
Quote:
I think we would all be interested in a bot's analysis, especially Janzert's shiny new one

Yes, I'm certainly interested, and I'm not accusing Janzert of doing anything wrong since we hadn't discussed this (and it doesn't have any influence at this stage of the game).
 
Quote:
but only after we have commited to our own selections.  I personally am enjoying how the various muggle suggestions ebb and flow as the discussion proceeds.  I would also enjoy seeing how a bot would have handled a critical position a few moves ago, as long as that information doesn't influence the selection of the current move.
 
Hmm ... it's possible that an opportunity can go unseen for many moves, and what I say above could be quite wrong in theory.  Maybe it's best if we consult the bots after the game is over.

I don't really mind how long the bot-silence-window is, as long as it's after our move, but for purists or for clarity, Ron is probably correct that at least a few moves delay are neccessary.
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arimaa_master
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Re: Move 17
« Reply #17 on: Nov 16th, 2007, 3:16pm »
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I would like to see bots involved too - but one think to consider: if we will be able to reach endgame position - bots can help us very much - maybe too much.  
 
Now when I read through the previous posts - I see that this was already said.
« Last Edit: Nov 16th, 2007, 3:18pm by arimaa_master » IP Logged
The_Jeh
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Re: Move 17
« Reply #18 on: Nov 21st, 2007, 4:55pm »
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It is finally time to reveal Chessandgo's move, which is:
 
17w rb3e Hb2n Ed5n mc5e
 
We are fortunate to get a move that we have already anticipated to some extent.
« Last Edit: Nov 21st, 2007, 5:01pm by The_Jeh » IP Logged
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Re: Move 17
« Reply #19 on: Nov 21st, 2007, 6:37pm »
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The move that we have in the Fritz's tree seems to be ok...
 
I'd consider also 17b hb5e hg6e hh6w Rh5n
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Re: Move 17
« Reply #20 on: Nov 22nd, 2007, 12:58am »
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17b hb5e md5s Dc4w md4w -the move we had in the tree- seems fine but is there any chance that our advanced camel will end up hurting us?
 
How do we respond to 18w Ed6s hc5n Ed5w Db4w ?
 
As for the other move mentioned so far
17b hb5e hg6e hh6w Rh5n
.    18w md5e Ed6s me5s Ed5e
 
and unless we are missing something we have an inferior position
 
overall when i look at the position i think our camel is better on the western wing. and then only way that i see that this can be maintained is through Fritz's  move from the tree. So even though I have my concerns unless someone comes up with some better move (which is quite possible) or we show that this move is clearly flawed I am going to support it but at the same time i am going to try and find any flaws that i can
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arimaa_master
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Re: Move 17
« Reply #21 on: Nov 23rd, 2007, 8:57am »
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on Nov 14th, 2007, 12:14pm, arimaa_master wrote:

 
I think we should be worrying about  
 
20w Ec4n mb4e Ha3e Da4e
 
arenīt we going into trouble with our camel there?
 

 
 
 
 
Since no one answered to my worries - so I consider that we are in real trouble - so maybe we should start finding another 17b.
 
(I donīt have time now - but I deliver some moves later this weekend).
 
« Last Edit: Nov 23rd, 2007, 10:05am by arimaa_master » IP Logged
arimaa_master
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Re: Move 17
« Reply #22 on: Nov 23rd, 2007, 10:16am »
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on Nov 23rd, 2007, 8:57am, arimaa_master wrote:

 
 
 
 
Since no one answered to my worries - so I consider that we are in real trouble - so maybe we should start finding another 17b.
 
(I donīt have time now - but I deliver some moves later this weekend).
 

 
One quick suggestion: what about  
 
17b hb5e md5e me5e mf5e ?
 
at least our camel is safe there and ready to threaten chesandgo's  horse.  
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Fritzlein
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Re: Move 17
« Reply #23 on: Nov 24th, 2007, 12:19pm »
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I am away from home for Thanksgiving, so I have no chance to analyze, but I did look at chessandgo's move before leaving.  Let me give my general impression, with specific lines to follow if I have time before the voting.
 
I am no longer as confident as I was before that we are winning.  I think moving our camel east concedes strategic disadvantage, and admits that we chose a bad a plan the previous several moves.  If that is the best we can do, let's do it, but I am not ready to concede strategic disadvantage so easily.
 
At the moment I think 17b hb5e md5s Dc4w md4w is our best choice.  It is merely unclear, whereas other moves are clearly flawed.
 
Our exposed camel is indeed a liability, but our framed rabbit makes our camel more dangerous and harder to take hostage.  Meanwhile chessandgo's advanced dog remains a liabilty to him.  If we can capture that dog in exchange for giving up our camel hostage, then we are slightly winning.  A camel hostage can be worth as much as a dog capture, but in this case our framed rabbit slightly reduces the value of a camel hostage to chessandgo, in my estimation.
 
After
 
17b hb5e md5s Dc4w md4w
.    18w Ed6s hc5n Ed5w Db4w  
.    .    18b mc4w Da4n mb4w hc6w
 
chessandgo can't carelessly attack our camel, because our horse will capture his dog.  However, the position is complicated, and it may be possible there is a line in which chessandgo can mobilize his horse to protect his dog, at the same time keeping our camel hostage, in which case we have given up a camel hostage for nothing.
 
These lines are tricky.  If someone can show a way for chessandgo to get our camel hostage without losing a dog, then I will be ready to admit my idea of activating our camel in the west was wrong, and I will regret that we tried to get an advantage out of the rabbit race instead of just trading rabbits for an even game.  However, if the lines point to chessandgo having to choose between both camel hostage and dog sacrifice or neither, then I think we are not losing and possibly winning.
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arimaa_master
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Re: Move 17
« Reply #24 on: Nov 24th, 2007, 2:57pm »
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on Nov 24th, 2007, 12:19pm, Fritzlein wrote:
I am away from home for Thanksgiving, so I have no chance to analyze, but I did look at chessandgo's move before leaving.  Let me give my general impression, with specific lines to follow if I have time before the voting.
 
I am no longer as confident as I was before that we are winning.  I think moving our camel east concedes strategic disadvantage, and admits that we chose a bad a plan the previous several moves.  If that is the best we can do, let's do it, but I am not ready to concede strategic disadvantage so easily.
 
At the moment I think 17b hb5e md5s Dc4w md4w is our best choice.  It is merely unclear, whereas other moves are clearly flawed.
 
Our exposed camel is indeed a liability, but our framed rabbit makes our camel more dangerous and harder to take hostage.  Meanwhile chessandgo's advanced dog remains a liabilty to him.  If we can capture that dog in exchange for giving up our camel hostage, then we are slightly winning.  A camel hostage can be worth as much as a dog capture, but in this case our framed rabbit slightly reduces the value of a camel hostage to chessandgo, in my estimation.
 
After
 
17b hb5e md5s Dc4w md4w
.    18w Ed6s hc5n Ed5w Db4w  
.    .    18b mc4w Da4n mb4w hc6w
 
chessandgo can't carelessly attack our camel, because our horse will capture his dog.  However, the position is complicated, and it may be possible there is a line in which chessandgo can mobilize his horse to protect his dog, at the same time keeping our camel hostage, in which case we have given up a camel hostage for nothing.
 
These lines are tricky.  If someone can show a way for chessandgo to get our camel hostage without losing a dog, then I will be ready to admit my idea of activating our camel in the west was wrong, and I will regret that we tried to get an advantage out of the rabbit race instead of just trading rabbits for an even game.  However, if the lines point to chessandgo having to choose between both camel hostage and dog sacrifice or neither, then I think we are not losing and possibly winning.

 
Yeah, that 18b (18b mc4w Da4n mb4w hc6w) looks very promising.  
 
Now my vote goes for 17b hb5e md5s Dc4w md4w too.
 
Thx for explanation and suggestion.
 
 
 
« Last Edit: Nov 24th, 2007, 3:09pm by arimaa_master » IP Logged
RonWeasley
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Re: Move 17
« Reply #25 on: Nov 25th, 2007, 9:14am »
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Just checking in.  I like the h->c5, push D move too.  It keeps our current advantages.
 
Let's begin voting Tuesday morning so that mobsters returning from holiday have a chance to see the discussion and raise pitchforks.  With few alternatives, quick voter response might let us end voting Tuesday evening or Wednesday morning and gain some reserve.
 
Note we have a time advantage, but that doesn't count for much since a quick move by chessandgo is usually better than a slow move by almost anybody else.
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Re: Move 17
« Reply #26 on: Nov 25th, 2007, 8:57pm »
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After analyzing a few lines, I am more confident of our position.  I still see only one viable choice for the current move, but the good news is that we seem to be at least equal after playing that one move.  On the other hand, the analysis tree isn't as deep or as bushy as it sometimes is, so I could easily be mistaken.
 
17b hb5e md5s Dc4w md4w
.    18w Ed6s hc5n Ed5w Db4w
.    .    18b mc4w Da4n mb4w hc6w
.    .    .    19w Ec5w Eb5s ma4s Eb4w
.    .    .    .    19b hb6w ha6e Da5n dd7s
.    .    .    .    .    20w Ea4n Da6n Ea5s Rb1n
.    .    .    .    .    .    20b hb6n hb7s Da7e ra8s
.    .    .    .    .    .    .    21w Hb3n Hb4n Ea4e Eb4s
.    .    .    .    .    .    .    .    21b hb6w Db7s Db6e Dc6x ha6e (=+)
.    .    .    19w Ec5s Ec4w Eb4n ma4e
.    .    .    .    19b hg6e hh6w Rh5n dd7s (=+)
.    18w Ed6s Ed5n hc5e Db4w
.    .    18b mc4n hd5s hd4w rb8s
.    .    .    19w Ed6s Ed5n mc5e Da4s
.    .    .    .    19b hc4e md5w hd4w rb7s (=+)
.    .    18b mc4w Hb3w mb4s rc8e
.    .    .    19w hd5s Ed6s Ed5w Ec5s  
.    .    .    .    19b mb3n rc3w rb3s hd4n
.    .    .    .    .    20w Ec4n mb4e Ha3e Da4e
.    .    .    .    .    .    20b dd7s hd5s Db4n mc4w (?)
.    .    .    .    .    20w Da4n Ha3e mb4w Ec4w
.    .    .    .    .    .    20b hd5w hc5w dd7s dd6s (?)
.    .    .    .    19b mb3s rc3w Cc2n mb2e
.    .    .    .    .    20w rb3n Cc3w Cb3s Ha3e (+=)  
.    18w Ed6s Ed5s hc5e Db4w
.    .    18b dd7s hd5w mc4w hc5w (=+)
17b hb5e md5e me5e mf5e
.    18w Ra2n Hb3n Ra3e Hb4n
.    .    18b Dc4e hc5s rb8s rb7s
.    .    .    19w rb6n Hb5n De2n Ra1n (+=)
.    .    18b cc7s rc8s rb8s rb7s
.    .    .    19w Ed6s Ed5e hc5e Ee5e (+=)
17b hb5e hg6e hh6w Rh5n
.    18w md5e Ed6s me5s Ed5e (+=)
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arimaa_master
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Re: Move 17
« Reply #27 on: Nov 26th, 2007, 9:41am »
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Ok, just another wild options to consider:
 
17b ce7s df7w ce6s md5w
 
or at the similar note:
 
17b ce7s dd7e ce6s md5w
 
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Re: Move 17
« Reply #28 on: Nov 26th, 2007, 11:01am »
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Quote:
Ok, just another wild options to consider:
 
17b ce7s df7w ce6s md5w
 
or at the similar note:
 
17b ce7s dd7e ce6s md5w

 
For these two ideas, I like the mobility each gives the silver camel, especially with a gold dog sticking to it.  I don't like the leaving a silver cat on e5, however.  Variations I play have gold using this cat in counterplay to extract the dog and threaten the silver camel.  There may be a way to avoid this trouble, but it looks risky to me.
 
These moves say that we should be thinking (later) about gold putting the g3 horse around our c6 trap if our camel gets tied up in the west.  The gold camel should also be expected to come east, so our e needs to have the mobility to meet it.
« Last Edit: Nov 26th, 2007, 11:02am by RonWeasley » IP Logged
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Re: Move 17
« Reply #29 on: Nov 28th, 2007, 7:32pm »
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And the winner, by a landslide, hb5e md5s Dc4w md4w!
 
We got only 10 votes out of 20 registered mobsters.  We are a ruly mob.
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