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   Move 20
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   Author  Topic: Move 20  (Read 2485 times)
Fritzlein
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Re: Move 20
« Reply #15 on: Dec 21st, 2007, 8:19am »
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on Dec 21st, 2007, 2:32am, 99of9 wrote:
Fritz, you have the Eb5, and Ra2 Cb2 wrong.

Oopsies.  Corrected, although no one will look at mine now that The Jeh's is up.
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mdk
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Re: Move 20
« Reply #16 on: Jan 1st, 2008, 2:40pm »
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I happened to look at the board again today and was wondering how we respond to 20w Da43 Rb2w Ha3n Db4e
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Re: Move 20
« Reply #17 on: Jan 2nd, 2008, 7:16am »
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on Jan 1st, 2008, 2:40pm, mdk wrote:
I happened to look at the board again today and was wondering how we respond to 20w Da43 Rb2w Ha3n Db4e

 
20b Me3n ed3e rc3e dd7s seems to set up a camel trade with silver getting something extra, maybe a D for a r.
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Fritzlein
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Re: Move 20
« Reply #18 on: Jan 3rd, 2008, 2:21pm »
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Chessandgo played 20w Ec5w Ra1n De1n De2w.
 
We can't push his horse back any more.  We can't pull his dog.  We therefore can't get that kind of compensation for giving up our camel as a hostage.
 
My first thought is that we either have to get our camel out of there while we still have a chance to avoid giving it up hostage, or we have to push his camel and play for a camel trade.
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mdk
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Re: Move 20
« Reply #19 on: Jan 3rd, 2008, 3:19pm »
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Ok so a few of ideas...
 
20b mc3n rc3w mb4e mc4e
20b mc3n rc3w mb4e mc4n
20b Me3n ed3e rc3e dd7s
20b Me3n ed3e rc3e cc7w
 
hopefully other people have some ideas as well. i definitely think we will need to play out some lines to decide the best move
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Soter
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Re: Move 20
« Reply #20 on: Jan 3rd, 2008, 3:32pm »
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Quote:
My first thought is that we either have to get our camel out of there while we still have a chance to avoid giving it up hostage, or we have to push his camel and play for a camel trade.[

 
Good ideas - but don't forget that Silver cat is now in danger.
I'll try to help a bit later - some heavy blood-spilling looms on the horizon.
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Fritzlein
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Re: Move 20
« Reply #21 on: Jan 3rd, 2008, 3:36pm »
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Also
 
20b mb3n rc3w mb4e mc4s
20b mb3n rc3w mb4e dd7s
 
and maybe
 
20b mb3n rb2n xxxx xxxx ??
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Janzert
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Re: Move 20
« Reply #22 on: Jan 3rd, 2008, 3:45pm »
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on Jan 3rd, 2008, 3:36pm, Fritzlein wrote:
Also
 
20b mb3n rc3w mb4e mc4s

 
I had just been looking at this and thought it looked fun. Wink So I'll be interested to see what others come with on it.
 
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The_Jeh
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Re: Move 20
« Reply #23 on: Jan 3rd, 2008, 4:30pm »
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20b 
 +-----------------+
8| r r r . . r r r |
7| . . c d c d r . |
6| . . x . . x h . |
5| h E . . . . . R |
4| D . . . . . . . |
3| H m r e M x H . |
2| R R C D . C . . |
1| . R R . . R R R |
 +-----------------+
   a b c d e f g h

 
This is just for my convenience. Next week I'll be back on high-speed.
« Last Edit: Jan 3rd, 2008, 4:32pm by The_Jeh » IP Logged
UruramTururam
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Re: Move 20
« Reply #24 on: Jan 3rd, 2008, 5:56pm »
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The hostage threat is present but I think there's quite a chance to overcome it with swarming... For now I propose:
 
20b: dd7s hg6e hh6w Rh5n
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Re: Move 20
« Reply #25 on: Jan 4th, 2008, 8:15am »
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Here's another swarming idea: 20b dd7s dd6s dd5s rg8s
 
This looks like it gives the silver e some freedom and makes work for the gold E.  That puts the D pull back in play and might let silver win the camel capture race.
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Fritzlein
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Re: Move 20
« Reply #26 on: Jan 4th, 2008, 3:21pm »
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on Jan 3rd, 2008, 3:19pm, mdk wrote:
20b Me3n ed3e rc3e dd7s
20b Me3n ed3e rc3e cc7w

 
After some analysis, pushing his camel looks poor for us.  Chessandgo threatens to get a camel and a rabbit for a camel.
 
20b Me3n ed3e rc3e dd7s
21w Eb5s rd3w Dd2n Rg1n
21b Me4n ee3n Me5n ee4n
22w Eb4e mb3n rc3x mb4s Ec4w (+=)
 
Swarming buys us time, but not enough time to get the camel for something less
 
20b Me3n ed3e rc3e dd7s
21w Eb5s rd3w Dd2n Rg1n
21b dd6s dd5w dc5s rb8s
22w Eb4n mb3n Ha3e Ra2n
22b Me4n ee3n Me5n ee4n
23w Eb5e Ec5w dc4n rc3x Rh1n (+=)
 
This doesn't mean that swarming is out; it means that if we are going to swarm, we should do so first, and look for an opportunity to push the camel after our swarm has gotten well underway.
 
What is out in my book (until someone gives a more promising line) is an immediate camel push.  
« Last Edit: Jan 4th, 2008, 3:22pm by Fritzlein » IP Logged

jdb
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Re: Move 20
« Reply #27 on: Jan 4th, 2008, 6:31pm »
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on Jan 4th, 2008, 3:21pm, Fritzlein wrote:

 
After some analysis, pushing his camel looks poor for us.  Chessandgo threatens to get a camel and a rabbit for a camel.
 
20b Me3n ed3e rc3e dd7s
21w Eb5s rd3w Dd2n Rg1n
21b Me4n ee3n Me5n ee4n
22w Eb4e mb3n rc3x mb4s Ec4w (+=)
 

 
Playing on a bit farther:
 
22b Me6e Mf6x ee5n ha5n Da4n
23w mb3e mc3x Eb4s Eb3n Eb4n
23b ha6n Da5n ha7e Da6n
 
The idea being to take the dog hostage after an exchange of camels.
 
If gold instead plays
21w rd3n Dd2n Eb5s Rg1n
Does this work?
21b Me4n ee3n rd4w xxxx
 
After looking some more,
 
20b Me3n ed3e rc3e rb8s
21w Eb5s rd3w Dd2n Rg1n
21b ha5n Da4n ha6e Da5n
 
And alot of pieces leave the board, but it looks like silver comes out ahead. But it is really complicated and I likely missed something.
 
« Last Edit: Jan 4th, 2008, 6:45pm by jdb » IP Logged
Fritzlein
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Re: Move 20
« Reply #28 on: Jan 4th, 2008, 8:02pm »
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A bit of analysis increases my interest in 20b mb3n rc3w mb4e mc4s.  At the most basic level, it threatens to win a cat,.  A more subtle feature of the move is that for chessandgo to retake b3, he can't push our rabbit back into c3.  He would have to push our rabbit away from the c3 trap, and onto a better square for our rabbit.  This raises the possibility that he would defend c3 with his elephant on c4, rather than retaking b3, which leaves our horse free to harrass his dog.  A final subtle point is that if both his horse advance in the west, our rabbit can often take up an ideal spot on a3, allowing our camel the possibility to escape via the b-file and crash the party around f6.
 
But first the least subtle line.  What if he takes our cat?  It looks like we have more stuff to capture faster, so his only hope is a goal race which we win:
 
20b mb3n rc3w mb4e mc4s
21w Eb5n Eb6n cc7s cc6x Eb7e
21b mc3n Cc2n Cc3x mc4s mc3s
22w rb3e Ha3e Cf2w Rf1w
22b Dd2s mc2e rc3s dd7n
23w Ra2n Da4e Db4e Ra3n
23b ha5e hb5s Dc4e hb4e
24w Ra4n Ra5n Ra6n Rg1w
24b hc4w ed3w ec3n Hb3e Hc3x
25w Ec7w rc8s rc7s rc6x Eb7e
25b md2n ec4n dd8w hb4s (-+)
 
It's extremely sharp, and worth further examination, but let's say he can't afford to enter the bloodletting line, and tries to come home with his elephant.
 
20b mb3n rc3w mb4e mc4s
21w Eb5e Ec5s rb3n Ha3e
21b ha5e Da4n Da5n hb5w
22w rb4w Hb3n Hb4n Hb5n
22b mc3w mb3n mb4n dd7s (=+)
 
That didn't work so well.  If he comes home with his elephant, his dog is hung out to dry, so maybe he needs to activate his camel?
 
20b mb3n rc3w mb4e mc4s
21w Eb5e Ec5s Cf2w Me3n
21b ha5e Da4n Da5n hb5w
(but no, the camel gets in trouble for defending: 22w Me4n Me5w Md5w Mc5w 22b ed3n ed4n ed5w mc3e -+)
22w Ha3n Ha4e Hb4n Hb5n
22b rb3w mc3w dd7s ha5s
(now chessandgo's misplaced second rank rabbits prevent him from taking our camel hostage)
23w Me4n Me5w dd6e Md5n
23b mb3n mb4n Hb6n mb5n (-+)
 
So perhaps the answer for Gold is not in camel activation, but in defending c3 with small pieces to keep the gold elephant free.
 
20b mb3n rc3w mb4e mc4s
21w rb3n Ha3e Ra2n Cf2w
21b mc3n Cc2n mc4n Cc3n
 
This last line is unclear, but it might favor us if nothing of ours can be effectively threatened except our advanced rabbit (now no longer framed) while gold has several small pieces and rabbits that are targets for us.
 
So far I like the move 20b mb3n rc3w mb4e mc4s pretty well for us.
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Re: Move 20
« Reply #29 on: Jan 8th, 2008, 7:18am »
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Looks like the WC has got our attention.  Let's plan on voting Wednesday unless some more discussion pops up.  Fritzlein's favored move looks good to me.  I couldn't find any devistating counters to it and it looks safer than the alternatives.
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