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   Author  Topic: Move 35  (Read 6339 times)
Janzert
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Move 35
« on: Jun 20th, 2008, 3:05pm »
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And chessandgo responds quickly:
 
35w De3n rd4n De4w Re2w
 
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Soter
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Re: Move 35
« Reply #1 on: Jun 20th, 2008, 3:30pm »
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First glance idea:  35b ed3e ee3s dc4n xxxx
 
?
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Fritzlein
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Re: Move 35
« Reply #2 on: Jun 20th, 2008, 4:47pm »
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My analysis from before was that chessandgo needed to play his fourth step Da3n, because if he didn't we could play 35s dc4w db4w ce7s xxxx, with the idea of meeting a dog capture with 36s Dd4w ed3n Dc4n ed4w and a return capture the following move.  Now I see that 36g Rc2n Rc3n xxxx xxxx disrupts our plan and leaves us winning only a rabbit (maybe), but if we could get a rabbit for sure that isn't so bad because after a trade we have CRR for D and no longer have the dog hostage to worry about.  Just food for thought.
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mistre
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Re: Move 35
« Reply #3 on: Jun 20th, 2008, 5:33pm »
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Fritz, I came across the same dilemma in trying to engineer a dog trade.  The problem is we need to be able to fill the c3 trap with a piece and stop his A3 dog from advancing and we can't do both in 4 steps.  Whatever I tried led to one of his dogs getting free on our side of the board and we have nothing to stop it.
 
I think Soter's move has potential with dc4w, db4w as the last two steps.  This way, it prevents him from taking our Dog right after the Horse and also blocks his a3 dog from advancing.  In this line I see us down a Horse for a Dog.  So essentially we traded C-D for H, so slight advantage to us, except he will have the last remaining H, so I am not sure.
 
So a potential move:
 
35b ed3e ee3s dc4w db4w
 
Any one have anything else better?
 
Edit: I think there are lines after this move where we only get a R for our H, which is not acceptable.  We need to either find a better 35b or better moves after this one.
« Last Edit: Jun 20th, 2008, 5:38pm by mistre » IP Logged

99of9
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Re: Move 35
« Reply #4 on: Jun 21st, 2008, 1:59am »
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how about
35b ed3e ee3s Hf2s ee2e
 
This might be our chance to take over the other trap, but it's a sharp line, and we'd need to play out the exchange sequence.
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Soter
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Re: Move 35
« Reply #5 on: Jun 21st, 2008, 4:01am »
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Quote:
Now I see that 36g Rc2n Rc3n xxxx xxxx disrupts our plan and leaves us winning only a rabbit (maybe), but if we could get a rabbit for sure that isn't so bad because after a trade we have CRR for D and no longer have the dog hostage to worry about.  Just food for thought.

It's much too early to say something with confidence ( is it  at all possible when playing Arimaa?  Smiley), but if it was up to me, I'd accept CRR vs D.
 
Quote:
Edit: I think there are lines after this move where we only get a R for our H, which is not acceptable.  We need to either find a better 35b or better moves after this one.

mistre, could you post some specific lines that are unfavourable to us ?( I simply have  little free time now...)
 
Quote:
how about  
35b ed3e ee3s Hf2s ee2e  
 
Hmmm, I'm afraid that Jean's H will run away and his E will eat our dog without  giving up the horse hostage. But I only looked at it for a while.
 
P.S. How would you Mobsters continue after this one ( is it at all plausble?)
 
35b  ed3e ee3s dc4w db4w  
36w Dd4s Dd3e Rd2n Da3n
36b Hf2s ee2e Cg3e dg2n
37w De3n Hf1w Rh1n Ch3n
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Fritzlein
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Re: Move 35
« Reply #6 on: Jun 21st, 2008, 8:35am »
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Hmmm, this is looking worse for us than I thought two moves ago, as none of our current moves seem good to me on preliminary examination.  I wonder if there is a tactical save here somewhere, or if we will have to cut our losses.  Sad  I'll try to post some lines yet this weekend.
« Last Edit: Jun 21st, 2008, 8:35am by Fritzlein » IP Logged

warren
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Re: Move 35
« Reply #7 on: Jun 21st, 2008, 11:25am »
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It looks to me like we're going to lose our dog for minor compensation. It seems Chessandgo will get a choice between losing a rabbit and letting our horse go free. Which is he likely to pick? Can we get better compensation than that?
 
Update: the best move I see so far is 35b dc4s dc3n Rc2n xxxx. This move:
* makes progress on rescuing our horse
* temporarily neutralizes the c3 trap
* threatens to pull that rabbit to c6
 
For example
35b dc4s dc3n Rc2n xxxx
36w kill our dog; his horse ends at f2
36b use our dog to move his c3 rabbit to c5
He then either has to give up the rabbit or abandon our horse.
« Last Edit: Jun 21st, 2008, 11:43am by warren » IP Logged
mistre
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Re: Move 35
« Reply #8 on: Jun 21st, 2008, 1:06pm »
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on Jun 21st, 2008, 8:35am, Fritzlein wrote:
Hmmm, this is looking worse for us than I thought two moves ago, as none of our current moves seem good to me on preliminary examination.  I wonder if there is a tactical save here somewhere, or if we will have to cut our losses.  Sad  I'll try to post some lines yet this weekend.

 
Just curious, but since you weren't around for the "kill the cat" vote, I was wondering if you would have voted for our selected 32b or did you find a better move?
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Re: Move 35
« Reply #9 on: Jun 21st, 2008, 3:08pm »
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on Jun 21st, 2008, 1:06pm, mistre wrote:
Just curious, but since you weren't around for the "kill the cat" vote, I was wondering if you would have voted for our selected 32b or did you find a better move?

Without taking time to analyze, I would have killed the cat.  The danger to our dog was going to happen anyway, right?
 
The last major turning point I see was move 29, without which chessandgo's horse crossing would not have had the time to work.  However, I guess we still had chances after that to give up our rabbit with a slightly better game, so if we aren't winning at least a little bit now, then something else must have gone wrong.
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warren
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Re: Move 35
« Reply #10 on: Jun 22nd, 2008, 1:32am »
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on Jun 21st, 2008, 1:59am, 99of9 wrote:
how about
35b ed3e ee3s Hf2s ee2e
 
This might be our chance to take over the other trap, but it's a sharp line, and we'd need to play out the exchange sequence.

 
99's move was counterintuitive to me at first, but now I think it leaves us with a strong position and is my current favorite move. The key is our b5, d5 and g6 rabbits, which are waiting to make serious goal threats when trades occur.
 
A straightforward line is:
35b ed3e ee3s Hf2s ee2e
36w Eb3e Ec3w dc4s dc3x Hf1w
36b Cg3w Cf3x dg2n rb5e rc5s
37w rc4s rc3x Dd4w Dc4e Rc1e
after which we can advance our g6 rabbit and wreak havoc. He can choose to instead swarm the c6 trap on move 36w, but in the lines I've looked at we retain our material advantage without any obvious positional catastrophes.
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99of9
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Re: Move 35
« Reply #11 on: Jun 22nd, 2008, 2:51am »
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on Jun 22nd, 2008, 1:32am, warren wrote:
99's move was counterintuitive to me at first, but now I think it leaves us with a strong position and is my current favorite move.

I'm glad I shared it.  In reply to Soter's 36w I tried an even sharper line:
36b Cg3w Cf3x dg2n rg6s rg5s
but I couldn't find a way to force goal if he killed the horse.
 
Quote:
A straightforward line is:
35b ed3e ee3s Hf2s ee2e
36w Eb3e Ec3w dc4s dc3x Hf1w
36b Cg3w Cf3x dg2n rb5e rc5s
37w rc4s rc3x Dd4w Dc4e Rc1e

I love that you're using a bot tactic here (sending the b5 rabbit to it's death to protect our horse: "lemmings").
 
Another option for him is
36w Eb3e Ec3e dc4s dc3x Ed3e
36b Cg3n dg2n Rc2n Rc3x hb2e
but I think that still leaves us with quite a good position since we have all the threats.
« Last Edit: Jun 22nd, 2008, 2:56am by 99of9 » IP Logged
warren
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Re: Move 35
« Reply #12 on: Jun 22nd, 2008, 3:48am »
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on Jun 22nd, 2008, 2:51am, 99of9 wrote:

I love that you're using a bot tactic here (sending the b5 rabbit to it's death to protect our horse: "lemmings").

I used Bomb extensively in my analysis, so it's not surprising that I would use a bot tactic. In this case it seems to be a legitimate move rather than just delaying the inevitable. If you do 36b Cg3w Cf3x dg2n rg6s rg5s instead, you're one crucial step away from having a goal threat so it doesn't work out.
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99of9
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Re: Move 35
« Reply #13 on: Jun 22nd, 2008, 4:52am »
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on Jun 22nd, 2008, 3:48am, warren wrote:

I used Bomb extensively in my analysis, so it's not surprising that I would use a bot tactic. In this case it seems to be a legitimate move rather than just delaying the inevitable.

Yes, it's definitely legitimate, and seems to help us quite a bit.
 
Quote:
If you do 36b Cg3w Cf3x dg2n rg6s rg5s instead, you're one crucial step away from having a goal threat so it doesn't work out.

Well, we don't have a 4 step goal, but I was hoping we would have a 4 step way of forcing goal on a later move, but I couldn't make it work.
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Re: Move 35
« Reply #14 on: Jun 22nd, 2008, 5:25am »
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on Jun 21st, 2008, 1:59am, 99of9 wrote:
how about
35b ed3e ee3s Hf2s ee2e
 
This might be our chance to take over the other trap, but it's a sharp line, and we'd need to play out the exchange sequence.

 
This move looks like it has potential.  
 
What happens if gold plays a move to protect the f3 trap? The threat to silver's hostage horse is not going to go away, so if gold can slow down silver's goal attack enough, he would have a good position. I don't think defending the f3 trap will work for gold, but it needs to be looked at.
 
35b ed3e ee3s Hf2s ee2e
36w Rc1->e3
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