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   2007 One vs TheMob
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   Author  Topic: Move 35  (Read 6904 times)
warren
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Re: Tree for 99's 35b
« Reply #30 on: Jun 22nd, 2008, 2:38pm »
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on Jun 22nd, 2008, 12:29pm, jdb wrote:

If gold waits until 38w to defend, it looks like he loses material to stop the goal. On move 37w, Gold can capture the rabbit in three steps and use the other step to defend. This may be enough to enable a defence on 38w, but I am not sure.

Yeah, doing a Rc1e at the end of move 37w allows Gold a stronger defense:
35b ed3e ee3s Hf2s ee2e
36w Eb3e Ec3w dc4s dc3x Hf1w
36b Cg3w Cf3x dg2n rb5e rc5s
37w Eb3e Ec3w rc4s rc3x Rc1e
37b rg6s rg5s dg3e rg4s
38w He1e Rg1n Rd1e Hf1e
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Fritzlein
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Re: Tree for 99's 35b
« Reply #31 on: Jun 22nd, 2008, 2:57pm »
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on Jun 22nd, 2008, 2:00pm, warren wrote:

After
35b ed3e ee3s Hf2s ee2e
36w Eb3e Ec3w dc4s dc3x Hf1w
36b Cg3w Cf3x dg2n rb5e rc5s
37w Da3n Da4e rc4s rc3x Db4e
 
how about
37b rg6s rg5s dg3e rg4s (bomb/warren)
which seems to pretty much force
38w Eb3e Ec3e Ed3e Hf1e (bomb/warren)
freeing our horse.

Oh, yeah, that's a much better attacking move than I came up with.  I feel better about that line now.
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Fritzlein
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Re: Tree for 99's 35b
« Reply #32 on: Jun 22nd, 2008, 3:36pm »
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on Jun 22nd, 2008, 12:29pm, jdb wrote:

37b rh7->h3
38w PASS
39b dg3s Rg1w dg2s rh3s

Very nice attacking idea.  Yes, Gold can take the Rc1e step on 37w and have a goal defense that loses a rabbit instead of a horse, but Gold also loses the activation of his horse and a lot of time.  After
 
35b ed3e ee3s Hf2s ee2e
36w Eb3e Ec3w dc4s dc3x Hf1w
36b rb5e rc5s Cg3w Cf3x dg2n
37w Eb3e Ec3w rc4s rc3x Rc1e
37b rh7s rh6s rh5s rh4s
38w Rg1n He1e Rd1e Hf1e
38b ef2n Rg2w ef3w Rf2n Rf3x,
 
Gold can't take our horse, we have material advantage of CRR for D, and most importantly we should be able to get enough of a swarm in the east to hold f3 with little pieces if necessary while our elephant guards c3.  So I am back to liking 99of9's move (again).
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warren
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Re: Move 35
« Reply #33 on: Jun 23rd, 2008, 12:42am »
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Here's an excerpt of the tree after
35b ed3e ee3s Hf2s ee2e
that includes only our best moves (in my opinion; say something if you disagree) but all of his moves. Let's try to attack this plan by either:
  • finding a move for gold better than those in this tree or
  • showing that one of the leaves of this tree is bad for us.

 
36w Rc1e Rd1e Re1n Re2n
36b Cg3e dg2n rg6s rg5s
37w Eb3e Ec3w dc4s dc3x Dd4e
37b ef2n ef3s Re3e Rf3x rg4w
38w Hf1w Eb3n hb2n Rd2n
38b ce7s rf7s rf6s rd5s
39w hb3e hc3x Eb4s Rg1w Rd3e
39b ef2w Re3e Rf3x ee2n ce6s
 
36w Eb3e Ec3w dc4s dc3x Hf1w  
 36b Cg3w Cf3x dg2n rb5e rc5s
  37w rc4s rc3x Dd4w Dc4e Rc1e or Eb3e Ec3w rc4s rc3x Rc1e  
 . 37b rh7s rh6s rh5s rh4s  
 . .38w Rg1n He1e Rd1e Hf1e  
 . . 38b ef2n Rg2w ef3w Rf2n Rf3x  
  37w Da3n Da4e rc4s rc3x Db4e  
 . 37b rg6s rg5s dg3e rg4s  
 . .38w Eb3e Ec3e Ed3e Hf1e
 
36w Eb3e Ec3e dc4s dc3x Ed3e
36b Cg3n dg2n Rc2n Rc3x hb2e
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99of9
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Re: Move 35
« Reply #34 on: Jun 23rd, 2008, 1:03am »
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on Jun 22nd, 2008, 9:48am, Fritzlein wrote:

35b ed3e ee3s Hf2s ee2e
36w Rc1e Rd1e Re1n Re2n
36b Cg3e dg2n rg6s rg5s
37w Eb3e Ec3w dc4s dc3x Dd4e
37b ef2n ef3s Re3e Rf3x rg4w

 
We need to think through what happens if he plays more defensive moves before killing our pieces.  Something like...
37w Dd4e De4e Hf1w Rg1n
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Fritzlein
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Re: Move 35
« Reply #35 on: Jun 23rd, 2008, 5:41am »
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on Jun 23rd, 2008, 1:03am, 99of9 wrote:
We need to think through what happens if he plays more defensive moves before killing our pieces.  Something like...
37w Dd4e De4e Hf1w Rg1n

If his dog joins the defense of f3, our d5 rabbit can temporarily secure c3 from d3.  We would then have a threat of our elephant pushing the defensive piece on f4 to f5 for capture in f6, as well as remote goal threats both center and east, which makes it difficult for his horse to know where to defend.
« Last Edit: Jun 23rd, 2008, 3:06pm by Fritzlein » IP Logged

warren
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Re: Move 35
« Reply #36 on: Jun 23rd, 2008, 12:28pm »
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I wonder where RonWeasley is? A fresh pair of eyes would be nice, and also in a few days we'll need him to move...
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mistre
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Re: Move 35
« Reply #37 on: Jun 23rd, 2008, 5:04pm »
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All lines that I tried had me liking 35b ed3e ee3s Hf2s ee2e.
 
The best I could do for Chessandgo is to trade Dogs and Horses and leave us with a strong goal threat.
 
The reason it is such a good move strategically is that it immediately puts our east Dog in a strong position from a very weak one and it gives us solid control over the c6 trap. Finally it opens us up to advance rabbits on the east side.
 
I am ready to cast my vote for this move.  I have no doubt that Chessandgo will find some devious move that we haven't seen yet - so I guess we should keep looking.  I can't find one.
 
 
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99of9
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Re: Move 35
« Reply #38 on: Jun 23rd, 2008, 7:01pm »
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Gnobot is worried (at 13 ply after our proposed move) about:
 
35b ed3e ee3s Hf2s ee2e
36w Eb3e Ec3w dc4s dc3x Dd4w
 
Is our subsequent threat sufficient to get either a horse trade or a mobile horse after:
36b Cg3w Cf3x dg2n rg6s rg5s
 
I think we're fine, but it's probably worth someone double checking.
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Janzert
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Re: Move 35
« Reply #39 on: Jun 23rd, 2008, 9:44pm »
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on Jun 23rd, 2008, 7:01pm, 99of9 wrote:
Gnobot is worried (at 13 ply after our proposed move) about:
 
35b ed3e ee3s Hf2s ee2e
36w Eb3e Ec3w dc4s dc3x Dd4w
 
Is our subsequent threat sufficient to get either a horse trade or a mobile horse after:
36b Cg3w Cf3x dg2n rg6s rg5s
 
I think we're fine, but it's probably worth someone double checking.

 
After 35b ed3e ee3s Hf2s ee2e OpFor has:
 
depth 15
time 1547
score -69
pv Eb3e Ec3w dc4s dc3x Hf1w b Cg3w Cf3x dg2n rb5e rc5s w rc4s rc3x Dd4w Eb3n hb2n b ef2w ee2n ee3w
 
Janzert
 
p.s. A long run against the current position didn't seem to result in anything useful but here it is just for fun.
 
depth 14
time 36400
score 163
pv ed3e rg6s ee3s dc4w w Eb3e Ec3w Dd4s Dd3e b rd5s rc8w rd4s db4e w Rg1w
« Last Edit: Jun 24th, 2008, 5:01am by Janzert » IP Logged
99of9
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Re: Move 35
« Reply #40 on: Jun 23rd, 2008, 11:05pm »
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At 15 ply (after our proposed move) Gnobby has changed its mind and now favours Soter's original reply (kill dog and move horse sideways).  Since we're analysing that one already, this is not big news.
« Last Edit: Jun 23rd, 2008, 11:05pm by 99of9 » IP Logged
99of9
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Re: Move 35
« Reply #41 on: Jun 23rd, 2008, 11:23pm »
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on Jun 23rd, 2008, 12:42am, warren wrote:

35b ed3e ee3s Hf2s ee2e
36w Eb3e Ec3w dc4s dc3x Hf1w  
36b Cg3w Cf3x dg2n rb5e rc5s

37w rc4s rc3x Dd4w Eb3e hb2n
NOW WHAT DO WE DO??
I think we are in grave danger again, because I can't see a way to set up a goal threat fast enough.
 
[Edit] Perhaps this is good enough:
37b rd5e re5s re4s re3s
 
« Last Edit: Jun 23rd, 2008, 11:27pm by 99of9 » IP Logged
warren
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Re: Move 35
« Reply #42 on: Jun 24th, 2008, 12:32am »
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on Jun 23rd, 2008, 11:23pm, 99of9 wrote:

37w rc4s rc3x Dd4w Eb3e hb2n
NOW WHAT DO WE DO??
I think we are in grave danger again, because I can't see a way to set up a goal threat fast enough.
 
[Edit] Perhaps this is good enough:
37b rd5e re5s re4s re3s

 
After your 37b, bomb suggests
38w Ec3e hb3ex Ed3e Rg1w
Playing it forward a few turns, it seems gold survives and retains an immense material advantage.
 
How about instead for 37b just moving our elephant to d3 to protect our horse? It's not a wonderful position for us, since we have two cats and a hostage horse against his dog and horse, but it seems playable. This needs more thought, as this is the most likely line I think.
« Last Edit: Jun 24th, 2008, 12:33am by warren » IP Logged
99of9
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Re: Move 35
« Reply #43 on: Jun 24th, 2008, 1:01am »
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on Jun 24th, 2008, 12:32am, warren wrote:

 
After your 37b, bomb suggests
38w Ec3e hb3ex Ed3e Rg1w

Then I would answer:
38b rh7s rh6s rh5s rh4s
and now we have two strong goal attacks.
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jdb
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Re: Move 35
« Reply #44 on: Jun 24th, 2008, 1:33am »
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on Jun 24th, 2008, 1:01am, 99of9 wrote:

Then I would answer:
38b rh7s rh6s rh5s rh4s
and now we have two strong goal attacks.

 
This line is critical. Silver is behind in material. If there is no forced goal, this is deep trouble.
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