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Topic: 2015 Move 7 (Read 6926 times) |
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browni3141
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Re: 2015 Move 7
« Reply #15 on: Oct 6th, 2015, 1:48am » |
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on Oct 6th, 2015, 1:35am, SilverMitt wrote:| Well, as I'd rather not play for a camel hostage, I am inclined to favor a move like 7g g2 a5 Mb5. What would happen after a reply like 7s h5 Mg6:R Ec4, or what should we expect as 7s then? |
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8g Mb5e hb6s Ha6e Ef5w
Unless there is a tactical refutation, I believe we have sufficient compensation for the soon to be lost rabbit. The position seems close.
If we advance in the west, we may be almost forced to move our elephant back west as well, which seems like a loss of time, but our elephant has already served a purpose in the east by restraining silver's play there, which it can't do effectively anymore until silver has attacking prospects again. It should be okay.
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chessandgo
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Re: 2015 Move 7
« Reply #16 on: Oct 6th, 2015, 9:43am » |
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on Oct 5th, 2015, 2:53pm, SilverMitt wrote:
I am still interested in the analysis after 7g E::Mf4 7s Ee4 M:Rg5 Hh5. After, say, 8g Ef4 g2 Hh4 8s H:Rg6 M:Hh3, would we be trying for a camel hostage with something like 9g Hg3 E:Mh3? |
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aren't all the b-file moves at least as effective on 8g in this variation as on 7g?
Fwiw I wouldn't be thrilled about losing a Rabbit for a Hb6.
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| « Last Edit: Oct 6th, 2015, 9:45am by chessandgo » |
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Hippo
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Re: 2015 Move 7
« Reply #17 on: Oct 6th, 2015, 12:46pm » |
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on Oct 2nd, 2015, 10:30am, chessandgo wrote:
The horse staying on h4 would be enough.
The scariest answer wrt silver's f3 attack would be:
7g Ef5w mg5w mf5s Ee5e
7s ed4e Rg4n mf4e ee4e
I think we'd have to race with our b-file attack:
8g Mb3n Mb4n Mb5s hb6s
8s Hg3w mg4s hh4w rb7s
9g Mb4s hb5s De2n Rg5e (without the last step there is a frame on f3), and it looks like we get there first after:
9s mg3s Cf2w mg2w hg4s
10g Ef5e Eg5s hg3e Eg4s
Lots of other things for silver to try of course.
I'm not sure what the best 4th step would be for silver if it keeps its elephant centered on 7s, nothing looks very appealing, maybe de6e? At worst we would be in an ok defensive position with 8g Rg5e Ef5e x x and ready with the b-file attack on the next turn? |
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Just a little note ...
7g Ef5w mg5w mf5s Ee5e
7s ed4e Rg4n mf4e ee4e
8g Mb3n Mb4n Mb5s hb6s
8s Hg3w mg4s hh4w rb7s
9g De2n Dd2e Mb4s hb5s seems to be an alternative to Rh5
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| « Last Edit: Oct 6th, 2015, 12:46pm by Hippo » |
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SilverMitt
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Re: 2015 Move 7
« Reply #18 on: Oct 6th, 2015, 4:46pm » |
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I'm pretty sure silver wouldn't go for the MH trade after 7g Ma5:H (also, it might be helpful to describe in words what is happening in the lines we give). Rather, it seems we would be giving up a rabbit for an at-best unclear position afterwards, and our elephant can forget about threatening the silver camel.
I am still curious about how silver would reply to 7g a5 Mb5 g2(/h3?). This sort of move seems to be keeping our options open, and if silver can't safely pull the rabbit to g5, it is worth considering.
Otherwise, I think the camel flip with 7g E::Mf4 will allow us to keep the silver camel vulnerable. The possibility with the iffy camel hostage for a rabbit is unclear to me, but we are well set up to attack c6, so perhaps even a fairly dubious-seeming hostage may be effective. Meanwhile, if silver allows us to move our rabbit to h5, it should be relatively safe for a while, while silver would need to spend several steps to secure its camel (and horse?) before its elephant could return to help defend c6.
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deep_blue
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Re: 2015 Move 7
« Reply #19 on: Oct 6th, 2015, 6:06pm » |
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Okay, since we DO have some discussion on alternatives now I'll let it going for another day. (or half a day; I'll decide the details on that tomorrow)
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| « Last Edit: Oct 6th, 2015, 6:07pm by deep_blue » |
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browni3141
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Re: 2015 Move 7
« Reply #20 on: Oct 7th, 2015, 1:17am » |
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on Oct 6th, 2015, 4:46pm, SilverMitt wrote:
I am still curious about how silver would reply to 7g a5 Mb5 g2(/h3?). This sort of move seems to be keeping our options open, and if silver can't safely pull the rabbit to g5, it is worth considering. |
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I think silver would pull the rabbit to g5, and can do so "safely," but it's still worth considering.
I don't think we should concern ourselves too much with this rabbit. Opening rabbits aren't worth a lot and by trying too hard to defend an endangered opening rabbit we could lose more positionally and end up losing the rabbit in the long run anyway. The only desirable outcome for the rabbit I think would be landing it on h5 where it is safe short term and provides some value.
The camel flip seems okay, but if this were my own postal I'd probably spend at least an hour evaluating the "scary" 8s branch chessandgo posted.
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SilverMitt
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Re: 2015 Move 7
« Reply #21 on: Oct 7th, 2015, 2:11am » |
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Ah, I've finally looked at that sample line. I do think the fundamentals are on our side if that's the line silver chooses, as we have the elephants both in the east. I don't see how silver could dream of gaining an advantage there without a line where the silver elephant has time to go west.
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Hufflepup
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Re: 2015 Move 7
« Reply #22 on: Oct 7th, 2015, 3:39am » |
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Quote:| I am still curious about how silver would reply to 7g a5 Mb5 g2(/h3?). This sort of move seems to be keeping our options open, and if silver can't safely pull the rabbit to g5, it is worth considering. |
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Silver could reply with
7s: rh5s mg5n Rg4n Ed4n
If we continue the attack with
8g Mb5e hb6s Ha6e Ef5w
8s ed5w Mc5s Ra5s hb5w
9g Ee5w dd6n Ed5n Dd2n
9s Capture the rabbit
10g Dd3n Mc4w Mb4s Mb3w
10s hb6n hh4s mg6e rg5n
11g Ra4e Ma3n Ma4n rb4n
11s rg6w mh6w (capture rabbit) mg6s rh5s
12g Ma5s ha6s Ma4s ha5s
12s mg5s Hg3n mg4w hh2w
13g Ma3e ha4s De2n Dd4n
This would probably lead to a horse exchange followed by opposing deadlocked traps. We would be down a rabbit though without any clear tactical advantage to show for it.
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deep_blue
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Re: 2015 Move 7
« Reply #23 on: Oct 7th, 2015, 9:59am » |
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If we were to play Mb5 Ra5 and e.g. Rh3, what would we do on 7s eb5 Mc5? If we play 8g Ed6 on that silver might just push the camel back to c4 and continue in the east e.g. by pulling g4. I don't see how we get our west attack going then.
Alternatively if we play 8g Ed5 and camel back I don't see great attacking prospects for us either.
And if we flip mf4 silver has the choice of trading only camels, after which i am not sure if our Ha6 is that good anymore, or he delays the capture with hg4 me5 and it's not clear to me again how we proceed.
So what is the plan there?
P.S. Considered moves:
7g Ef5w mg5w mf5s Ee5e
7g Mb3n Mb4n Ra4n Rg1n
7g Mb3n Mb4n Ra4n Rh2n
7g Mb3n Mb4n Mb5w hb6s
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| « Last Edit: Oct 7th, 2015, 10:05am by deep_blue » |
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chessandgo
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Re: 2015 Move 7
« Reply #24 on: Oct 7th, 2015, 1:44pm » |
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on Oct 7th, 2015, 9:59am, deep_blue wrote:If we were to play Mb5 Ra5 and e.g. Rh3, what would we do on 7s eb5 Mc5?
7g Mb3n Mb4n Mb5w hb6s |
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That's a good point, it looks like we'd be in a bad shape.
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Hufflepup
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Re: 2015 Move 7
« Reply #25 on: Oct 7th, 2015, 1:58pm » |
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Quote:| And if we flip mf4 silver has the choice of trading only camels, after which i am not sure if our Ha6 is that good anymore, or he delays the capture with hg4 me5 and it's not clear to me again how we proceed. |
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if silver replied with hg4 me5 we coul play 8g: Ef5s Rg1n Rh2n Rh3n .
Silver is then forced to commit the elephant to f3 for a time to save the horse. Even then we would still be in a position to frame the horse on 9g leaving us free to proceed with the western attack.
Alternatively we could play 8g me5s Ef5w me4s Ee5s which would leave silvers camel in a highly vulnerable position.
I don't think silver can force a camel exchange as long as we don't advance too quickly in the west.
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deep_blue
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Re: 2015 Move 7
« Reply #26 on: Oct 7th, 2015, 2:18pm » |
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on Oct 7th, 2015, 1:58pm, Hufflepup wrote:
if silver replied with hg4 me5 we coul play 8g: Ef5s Rg1n Rh2n Rh3n .
Silver is then forced to commit the elephant to f3 for a time to save the horse. Even then we would still be in a position to frame the horse on 9g leaving us free to proceed with the western attack.
Alternatively we could play 8g me5s Ef5w me4s Ee5s which would leave silvers camel in a highly vulnerable position.
I don't think silver can force a camel exchange as long as we don't advance too quickly in the west.
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That comment above from me was meaning camel flip AFTER 7g Mb3n Mb4n Ra4n X 7s ed4w ec4w Mb5e eb4n after which it is not good. If it is good in the board position I don't know, but then, it doesn't look as if we have a whole lot of alternatives...
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browni3141
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Re: 2015 Move 7
« Reply #27 on: Oct 7th, 2015, 4:52pm » |
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on Oct 7th, 2015, 9:59am, deep_blue wrote:If we were to play Mb5 Ra5 and e.g. Rh3, what would we do on 7s eb5 Mc5? If we play 8g Ed6 on that silver might just push the camel back to c4 and continue in the east e.g. by pulling g4. I don't see how we get our west attack going then.
Alternatively if we play 8g Ed5 and camel back I don't see great attacking prospects for us either.
And if we flip mf4 silver has the choice of trading only camels, after which i am not sure if our Ha6 is that good anymore, or he delays the capture with hg4 me5 and it's not clear to me again how we proceed.
So what is the plan there? |
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If the move is refuted it would be nice to have some with a similar idea on the poll so that the idea doesn't die entirely, like any substitution of Mb4n for a different fourth step.
I already considered this reply, but didn't think much of it. Maybe there's something to it, but I don't see how we're in bad shape.
Silver loses time with this camel push maneuver by moving the elephant west and back east, and gold loses time because our camel needs to be unfrozen and the elephant needs to go west (which it would have done anyway in a lot of lines)
7g Mb3n Mb4n Ra4n Rg1n
7s ed4w ec4w Mb5e eb4n
8g Ef5w Ee5w dd6n Ed5n
8s Mc5s eb5e mg5e Rg4n
9g Cc2n Rc1n Mc4w Dd2n
I feel comfortable with our position. If silver then captures we have the pull and replace or the dog south push.
Or
8s Mc5e eb5e Md5e ec5e
9g de6e Ed6e Me5s Dd2n or whatever.
If silver spends time to push us around we are justified in spending time to maneuver.
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| « Last Edit: Oct 7th, 2015, 4:54pm by browni3141 » |
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Heyckie
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Re: 2015 Move 7
« Reply #28 on: Oct 7th, 2015, 7:32pm » |
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on Oct 7th, 2015, 4:52pm, browni3141 wrote:any substitution of Mb4n for a different fourth step.
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7g Mb3n Ra4n Ra2n Rg1n?
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deep_blue
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Re: 2015 Move 7
« Reply #29 on: Oct 8th, 2015, 5:43am » |
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on Oct 7th, 2015, 4:52pm, browni3141 wrote:
7g Mb3n Mb4n Ra4n Rg1n
7s ed4w ec4w Mb5e eb4n
8g Ef5w Ee5w dd6n Ed5n
8s Mc5s eb5e mg5e Rg4n
9g Cc2n Rc1n Mc4w Dd2n
I feel comfortable with our position. If silver then captures we have the pull and replace or the dog south push.
Or
8s Mc5e eb5e Md5e ec5e
9g de6e Ed6e Me5s Dd2n or whatever.
If silver spends time to push us around we are justified in spending time to maneuver. |
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I see your point, and even though I am not so sure about it I agree that we have compensation. But what if silver doesn't push us around any more than on 7s? Say, 8s m::Rg6 (or however that notation works  ) then sure, silver e is a bit decentralized but I also don't see how we immediately profit from it. e.g. 9g Dd2nnn Mc5n 9s Rf6x eb5e Ra5e and silver got plenty of time to start the counter attack against f3. And any other gold move doesn't really threaten to take over c6...
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