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   Author  Topic: 2015 Move 16g  (Read 1849 times)
deep_blue
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2015 Move 16g
« on: Feb 17th, 2016, 5:50am »
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Sharp made it's move.
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Hufflepup
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Re: 2015 Move 16g
« Reply #1 on: Feb 17th, 2016, 12:13pm »
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I don't think we can centralise the camel whilst the silver horse is behind the trap as it would be too vulnerable to the silver elephant.
 
Moving the e5 dog to e6 looks like it will just allow silver to hostage it with the horse quicker unless maybe we pull the e8 rabbit to e7 at the same time.
 
Alternatively maybe the best we can do is to work towards rotating the dog out of the frame: 16g: Rc1e Rd1e Cd2w Rh1n
« Last Edit: Feb 17th, 2016, 1:22pm by Hufflepup » IP Logged
mattj256
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Re: 2015 Move 16g
« Reply #2 on: Feb 18th, 2016, 10:46am »
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I voted for the played 15g and now I think that was a mistake.  As it stands right now our e5 dog has no hope of ever meaningfully contesting f6.  It might be able to hang out there for a turn or two, but this is a quiet position and there's no reason silver can't spend two or three or four turns bringing his c7 horse east, at which point the dog has no support unless we abandon the frame.
 
The move that jumps out at me is Mc5 : Dd5 X.  It's at least tactically interesting, which is more than can be said for a lot of moves in this position.  It's only useful if we're willing to move our elephant west to chase the dog though.
 
Flipping the dog to e4 is tactically interesting too.  I can't say I'm excited about doing that.
 
Our goal defense is looking thin in the southwest.  I could imagine moving the cat one step west and/or Rb1nn.
 
I could also see us doing Rh1nnn.  This doesn't solve any of the strategic problems, but it's surely better than doing nothing.
 
I'm not sure strategically what we should be playing for here.  Our elephant, camel, and both horses are either immobilized or strategically committed.  I don't see how we're going to ever make any progress without abandoning the frame.
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Hufflepup
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Re: 2015 Move 16g
« Reply #3 on: Feb 18th, 2016, 6:35pm »
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I voted for the played 15g and now I think that was a mistake.  As it stands right now our e5 dog has no hope of ever meaningfully contesting f6.  It might be able to hang out there for a turn or two, but this is a quiet position and there's no reason silver can't spend two or three or four turns bringing his c7 horse east, at which point the dog has no support unless we abandon the frame.

 
We  might  allow the rabbit to be captured in f6 in the next few turns, but that doesn't mean the advanced dog is useless, it can support the camel, help defend c6, and potentially give us a stronger attack should it become desirable for our elephant to abandon the frame.
 
Quote:
The move that jumps out at me is Mc5 : Dd5 X.  It's at least tactically interesting, which is more than can be said for a lot of moves in this position.  It's only useful if we're willing to move our elephant west to chase the dog though.

 
At best this would lead to a dog hostage which would not be as valuable as the horse frame, especially as it would mean the silver elephant would be better placed to threaten our camel.
 
Quote:
Flipping the dog to e4 is tactically interesting too.  I can't say I'm excited about doing that.

 
An e4 silver dog would get in the way of our elephant if we ever wanted it to abandon the frame. There would also be the risk of 16s: de4w dd4s Cd2s dd3s this would make it difficult for us to get our second dog out, and would allow silver to make capture threats in c3 later.
 
Quote:
Our goal defense is looking thin in the southwest.  I could imagine moving the cat one step west and/or Rb1nn.

 
In the short term I dont think goal defence is a problem as silver has no plausible way of getting an advanced rabbit, that said I do like the idea of cat west and Rb1nn to enhance trap defence at some point in the futue.
 
Quote:
I'm not sure strategically what we should be playing for here.  Our elephant, camel, and both horses are either immobilized or strategically committed.  I don't see how we're going to ever make any progress without abandoning the frame.

 
We may need to abandon the frame at some point to make progress, but I cant see how that will accomplish anything at the moment. Having a second advanced dog would help us gain a favourable position, though I now prefer Rc1e Rd1e Cd2w Rb1n to my previous suggestion as Rb1n would put it in a better position to protect c3, and there is no danger of silver getting a highly advanced rabbit in the immediate future.
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Hippo
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Re: 2015 Move 16g
« Reply #4 on: Feb 19th, 2016, 5:13pm »
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I am still thinking about moves like Md5 de6.
Trade of M for hd would be good for us and silver e probably cannot chase M immediately.
Of course such position would be very tactical. Mc7 hc8 would be fantastic.
« Last Edit: Feb 19th, 2016, 5:18pm by Hippo » IP Logged

half_integer
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Re: 2015 Move 16g
« Reply #5 on: Feb 21st, 2016, 9:25am »
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Dog flip to e4 does appear non-productive due to the response Hufflepup gave.  Although I did see some continuations that are near-equal but probably also lose rabbits:
   16g ::.De4
   16s D:Cd1
   17g Ed3 X (Rb2 or Rh2)
   17s Hf4 Ec4
   18g Me4  
and now what happens?  Horse trade with central dog hostage (but gold rabbits at risk) is possible, but 18s E:Me3 Hf5 now looks likely, threatening gold losing dog and horse for dog, or just a dog capture and still horse hostage.
Another deviation for silver is  
   17s H:.De6
which threatens dog trade and the frame is broken; there are some "interesting" tactical fights if we defend with 18g Hf5 Ce1.
All of that still makes me want to avoid the dog flip, but it is somewhat playable (probably just digging a deeper hole in the end).
 
We could consider abandoning the frame with the horse.  Pulling silver rabbits to make progress with ours seems like a bad idea given silver's strength at f3, but perhaps pushing H:Rh6 could be the start of fighting around f6 (actually a two-trap fight with f3 - or three with c6 too?!).  The possibility of the silver horse crossing would make it difficult to fight with the dog though.
 
It seems we need to try and restrict the silver horse.  A move like
   16g Rb4 Cc2 looks nice for long-term position, but  
   16s Rdc8 Cd8 He7 looks immediately worrisome for ever controlling f6.
 
   16g M:.Dc6 De6 is easily refuted by  
   16s Ed5(Hx) Rfe7
and if we don't take the fourth step with the dog we end up with an even worse central fight, losing both the dog and the camel in the end.
 
   16g M:.De6 Dd5 is also dangerous but possibly playable.  (We have to take the last step to avoid 16s Ed4:.De4 Ed5 which blocks our Ec5.)  Most likely outcome does appear to be a framed camel in c6 from which silver can rotate the elephant, though.
 
 
Gee, it looks like I don't have any good moves.  Do we need to look at more moves which release the frame then?
 
Edit: what about a quieter move like
   16g Ee4:.Df4 Df5 X (Cc2 or a rabbit step)
This "barely" gives up the frame as there is no easy place for the silver horse to go, it moves our Elephant one step closer to c6 in case silver wants to go threaten the camel, and it protects f6 while staying further away from the second silver horse.
I still worry about something like
   16s M:Rb4 and something to e6
because it threatens our camel, but it can be temporarily withdrawn.  The most likely response may be  
   16s Dg4 H:.De5  
which retreats the silver horse while contesting f6.
   17g H:.Dh4 Rg3 X
might be a response to that.  
(Or, without 16g Cc2 we can phalanx on e2 rather than play 17g Rg3.)
« Last Edit: Feb 21st, 2016, 9:48am by half_integer » IP Logged
deep_blue
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Re: 2015 Move 16g
« Reply #6 on: Feb 21st, 2016, 1:36pm »
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While I don't see any good move, my thoughts about "thin" goal defense: I don't think we should worry about defending south west for a simple reason. If silver ever gets an advanced rabbit there it means our north west position must have been crushed completely. In that case we lose anyway so we might as well not worry about goal defense but instead try to maximize our chances in case it doesn't happen.
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Hufflepup
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Re: 2015 Move 16g
« Reply #7 on: Feb 21st, 2016, 4:25pm »
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We could consider abandoning the frame with the horse.  Pulling silver rabbits to make progress with ours seems like a bad idea given silver's strength at f3, but perhaps pushing H:Rh6 could be the start of fighting around f6

 
16s: rf7e rg7e X X looks like it would shut down any attack on f6. Silver simply has too many pieces. If the silver horse used the chance to run away from f3 then the silver elephant can switch wings at which point we would have no threats, and the situation at c6 would look highly precarious.
 
Quote:
It seems we need to try and restrict the silver horse.  A move like
   16g Rb4 Cc2 looks nice for long-term position, but  
   16s Rdc8 Cd8 He7 looks immediately worrisome for ever controlling f6.

 
I  doubt we are going to get much control over f6 in the near future no matter what we do.
17g: Mc5e dd6e Md5n Rb5e is one potential response that looks OK.
 
17g: De5s De2w Re1n Dd2n is another possibility though it would mean sacrificing the rabbit.
 
Quote:
Edit: what about a quieter move like
   16g Ee4:.Df4 Df5 X (Cc2 or a rabbit step)
This "barely" gives up the frame as there is no easy place for the silver horse to go, it moves our Elephant one step closer to c6 in case silver wants to go threaten the camel, and it protects f6 while staying further away from the second silver horse.
I still worry about something like 16s M:Rb4 and something to e6  

 
16s: ee3w De2n Cf2w hf3s appears to decisevly break the frame.
 
If the M came to b4 one possibility would be:
16g: Rc1e Rd1e Cd2w Rb1n
16s: Rb5s mb6s cd7e ce7s
17g: Ha6e Mc5e dd6n Md5n
 
If silver moved the elephant to d5 our elephant could reach c5 to protect c6. With the snarl up in f6 it will take some time to threaten the camel there, and we would be in a position to make our own threats against the silver camel.
 
Quote:
While I don't see any good move, my thoughts about "thin" goal defense: I don't think we should worry about defending south west for a simple reason. If silver ever gets an advanced rabbit there it means our north west position must have been crushed completely. In that case we lose anyway so we might as well not worry about goal defense but instead try to maximize our chances in case it doesn't happen.

 
If we ever move the b5 rabbit to c5 we need to be aware of the following sneaky move: mb6e rb7s rb6s mc6w
« Last Edit: Feb 21st, 2016, 4:28pm by Hufflepup » IP Logged
lucifugero
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Re: 2015 Move 16g
« Reply #8 on: Feb 22nd, 2016, 3:12pm »
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i think silver will abandon the frame in short
time and push our camel into the c6 trap
i don't know how to prevent this
 
so i would play  
Rb1n Rc1n Rb2n Cd2n  
 
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Hippo
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Re: 2015 Move 16g
« Reply #9 on: Feb 22nd, 2016, 4:00pm »
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If we get hd for M we are fine ...
 
Ee4 df4 Df5 x is nonsense as it allows ed3 De3 Ce2 hf2 giving up either c6 or f3
« Last Edit: Feb 22nd, 2016, 4:21pm by Hippo » IP Logged

Hippo
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Re: 2015 Move 16g
« Reply #10 on: Feb 24th, 2016, 11:16am »
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Oops, I have not noticed the proposed move was not with Rc5, but with Dd5 instead. Sad
 
The former offers M for hd, but the played one offers MR for hd.
 
At least we speeded up M capture by 2 steps ...  
 
OK let us see, may be we have tactics to capture :sd and prevent the quick caMel capture anyways. And it's still good enough for us that Sharp would not choose the trade.
 
Hmm what about ec5hx? Does it lead to even trade H for h?
(And probably D for d?)
« Last Edit: Feb 24th, 2016, 11:27am by Hippo » IP Logged

deep_blue
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Re: 2015 Move 16g
« Reply #11 on: Feb 24th, 2016, 12:09pm »
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General notice:
If you don't feel like writing a complete forum post but still have something to say about the position, all feel free to post in this chat: http://chatwing.com/chatbox/efa6c5b0-19d9-11e5-a2ca-ebee53d27ab6
Let's try to revive that.
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Hufflepup
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Re: 2015 Move 16g
« Reply #12 on: Feb 25th, 2016, 4:33pm »
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Wont splitting the "discussion" in two just make it more likely for things to be missed? Does the chat have any advantages over a forum post?
 
Can someone explain what we are hoping to acheive with the played move? It looks to me as though we have just put our pieces in more danger without accomplishing anything.
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Re: 2015 Move 16g
« Reply #13 on: Feb 26th, 2016, 2:17am »
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I do feel that Mc7 would allow us to swarm c6 with small pieces and eventually leave with the camel (or just break the hostage).
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Hufflepup
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Re: 2015 Move 16g
« Reply #14 on: Feb 26th, 2016, 1:54pm »
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I do feel that Mc7 would allow us to swarm c6 with small pieces and eventually leave with the camel (or just break the hostage).

 
With the silver horse in play it is doubtfull we can swarm c6 with small pieces with the camel at c7. Silver attacking towards c3 looks far more likely in this case, and with the M on c7 we would be poorly placedd to deal with it. In the unlikely event we can get it there that is. What would we do if silver played 16s: ee3n ee4n Dd5s ee5w?
 
I think this would probably cost us the camel.
 
16s: rf7w rd8w re8w cf6n would effectively make it impossible to reach c7 if Sharp wants to play a slower game.
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