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deep_blue
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2015 Move 17g
« on: Mar 3rd, 2016, 6:28am »
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Sharp moved.
Just to throw SOMETHING in: Hippo mentioned that Mc7 might be nice. While it might be dubious to do right now it is still an option and probably deserves some analysis.
« Last Edit: Mar 3rd, 2016, 6:28am by deep_blue » IP Logged
browni3141
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Re: 2015 Move 17g
« Reply #1 on: Mar 4th, 2016, 12:23am »
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It's hard to come up with a plan that doesn't just leave us down a rabbit without any clear compensation.
 
My instinct is to look for moves to abandon the frame now or in the near future. Attacking c6 with the elephant is strategically appealing, although pretty loose tactically.
 
Mc7 does make the camel safer, but it doesn't seem to do much else and improves the silver horses position.
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Hippo
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Re: 2015 Move 17g
« Reply #2 on: Mar 4th, 2016, 4:32pm »
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I cannot see a plan for gold, what is silvers plan?
 
We are out of pieces and camel's position around c6 holds only temporarily thanks to capture threats in c3 silver is cut from c5.
 
But silver's dog could take shared controll around c3 by running to b4.
 
Even more as dog leaves f5, the trade M for h would become actual.
 
I am tending to agree we should attack c5 with our phant in near future ... something like Ec4 Rc5
 
Mc7 allows M blockade, Dc6 allows hD hostage.
« Last Edit: Mar 4th, 2016, 4:34pm by Hippo » IP Logged

aaaa
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Re: 2015 Move 17g
« Reply #3 on: Mar 4th, 2016, 8:50pm »
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Stuffing the c6 trap might be one middle-term plan, although the d5 dog would have to stay put for now.
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Hippo
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Re: 2015 Move 17g
« Reply #4 on: Mar 5th, 2016, 2:42am »
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OK here are my two proposals ...
A) Ec4 Rc5  
B) Rb3 Rd1 Dd4 ... to prevent db4
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half_integer
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Re: 2015 Move 17g
« Reply #5 on: Mar 6th, 2016, 7:22am »
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I am somewhat at a loss for the best move in this position.  I don't see a move that effectively protects the g5 rabbit so the question should be: what counter-threat or positional advantage can be get for it?  With the silver dog no longer at f5, our chances of getting both hd for M or MR are much less now.  However, I am not as pessimistic as many of you about the silver elephant leaving to threaten the middle; remember, unless it is a guaranteed trade, silver has to go down a horse in exchange for unclear tactics, and I simply don't think he'll do that.  (We do have to worry what sharp can see as a forced trade though.)  I am also a bit worried about a silver advance down the h file (just for congestion and to make quicker threats later), and we can't leave both b5 and c6 empty which permits silver Rb5 with Mew.
 
Stuffing the c6 trap seems appealing, but must be done carefully.  A response like 17s Mb5 Rb6 Hb7 Rc7 would almost guarantee we get framed if we put a rabbit in c6, whereas a dog could just be taken hostage by the horse.  We need a piece at c5 to prevent the horse going through the trap, or an unfreezing piece at b4 or d4 so we can threaten a c5 horse in one move.
 
I thought Rc6 Rb5 Dd4 could work, but I don't like the response 17s M:Ra5 Rb6 Rcb8 .  I think we still get framed or run the risk of letting a silver rabbit out, but perhaps we could bring additional pieces in quickly enough.  *add: 17s H::Rd5 would also be an excellent reply by silver, blocking us with our own rabbit; the rabbit seems to end up in the f6 trap regardless of reply.
 
I am returning to the idea of completing the phalanx with Rbb4 Dc5 .  The Rb4 prevents the silver Db4 that some of you pointed out, as well as unfreezing anything that gets pushed to c4.  I don't think silver would take the horse through the trap, but 17s Mc6:R M:Db5 is possible; it leads to a fight for control of c6 where I'm not sure of our best move.  
Hmm, phalanx might fail to:
  17g Rbb4 Dc5
  17s Ed5 (Hf3x) De7
  18g E:.De6 Hg4
  18s H:.Dc4 X
Is there a way to defend this line?  Maybe Cc2 on 18g, but we still end up with a central camel hostage.
 
Perhaps a partial phalanx instead, like  
  17g Rb4 Cc2  
We could also just accept the status quo at c6 and make a quieter move, such as
  17g Rhh3 Rbb2 Dd4
or
  17g Cc2 Rce1 Dd4
or some combination of those ideas.  Note that if we move the Dd5 that we need to ensure that the silver elephant cannot then successfully attack the camel.
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Hufflepup
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Re: 2015 Move 17g
« Reply #6 on: Mar 6th, 2016, 3:32pm »
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I cant see us getting anywhere with an attack on C6. Our advanced rabbits mean we cant do anything about the camel, and our camel would  still be in adangerous ituation between two traps.
 
Mc7 might make our camel a bit safer, but it would leave silver to free to attack C3 which would be very dangerous with our camel out of position.
 
Strategically I think our best long term bet it to work to bring our second dog forward. We should really have done this last turn, as it is 17g: Rc1e Rd1e Cd2w Rb1n would allow the silver D to get to b4 or d2 either of which would be very bad. Rb4 only delays either of these possibilities for one turn.
 
As it is the best I think we can do is: 17g: Dd5s Md6s Md5w Cd2w. This blocks the silver dog or horse from getting anywhere dangerous in the near future, and makes some progress in bringing the second dog forward.
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Hippo
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Re: 2015 Move 17g
« Reply #7 on: Mar 7th, 2016, 3:13am »
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on Mar 6th, 2016, 3:32pm, Hufflepup wrote:

As it is the best I think we can do is: 17g: Dd5s Md6s Md5w Cd2w. This blocks the silver dog or horse from getting anywhere dangerous in the near future, and makes some progress in bringing the second dog forward.

 
It seems to me my B) variant makes our dog free much faster ...
 
I more and more like  
 
17g Ec5 it seems to me we could deal with camel hostage with Rc5 Eb6 mb5 and with possible camel trade Ha6 would be perfect... I dont'think silver could attack f3 in response.
 
« Last Edit: Mar 7th, 2016, 3:14pm by Hippo » IP Logged

deep_blue
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Re: 2015 Move 17g
« Reply #8 on: Mar 7th, 2016, 6:17pm »
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So far mentioned moves (which will be in the poll):
17g cd7n Md6n hc7s Md7w
17g cd7e Md6n hc7s Md7w
17g Ef4w Ee4w Ed4w Rb5e
17g Rb1n Rb2n Rb3n Dd5w
17g Rb1n Rb2n Rb3n Cd2w
17g Dd5s Md6s Md5w Cd2w
17g Rb5e Rc5n Ra5e Rc1e
17g Rb5e Rc5n Ra5e Dd5w
17g Ef4w Ee4w Ed4w Ec4n
17g Cd2w Rb5e Md6w Dd5n
« Last Edit: Mar 8th, 2016, 7:33am by deep_blue » IP Logged
browni3141
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Re: 2015 Move 17g
« Reply #9 on: Mar 7th, 2016, 6:50pm »
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How would be respond to:
 
17g Rb1n Rb2n Dd5s Rc1e
17s ee3n hf3x Dd4s ee4w ed4n
 
I think this 17g just loses material. Other moves in the list have a similar problem, unless the intent of the suggestion was sacrifice.
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Lion
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Re: 2015 Move 17g
« Reply #10 on: Mar 7th, 2016, 7:02pm »
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I don't really see what we can get out of attacking with Ec5. It seems to me that the framed silver horse will get liberated, we'll still have our horse hostaged on a6, and the g5 rabbit will get captured anyway.
 
Therefore, I'd vote for:
17g Rb5e Rc5n Ra5e X
 
X might be Rc1e so as to free the e2 dog and possibly start threatening to rotate out the g3 horse.
 
X might be Dd5w in case we wish to prevent silver dog from occupying c5, although this is probably not dangerous at this point.
 
In response, I expect sharp to simply capture the g5 rabbit.
 
Long-term, we might aim to blockade d4 with the e2 dog (initially, perhaps blockading the square with the e5 dog). If we achieve this, we might then consider simply waiting a few moves to see what sharp does. My hope would be that sharp starts carelessly pushing his pieces forward along the h- and g- files. Then, we might get an opportunity to either complete the horse (and then elephant) rotation, attack f6, or get an advanced rabbit, somehow, in the east. In the very least, we might build up our time bank.  This is a long-odds plan, to be sure, but perhaps it is our best hope at this point.
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Hippo
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Re: 2015 Move 17g
« Reply #11 on: Mar 8th, 2016, 1:50am »
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on Mar 7th, 2016, 6:50pm, browni3141 wrote:
How would be respond to:
 
17g Rb1n Rb2n Dd5s Rc1e
17s ee3n hf3x Dd4s ee4w ed4n
 
I think this 17g just loses material. Other moves in the list have a similar problem, unless the intent of the suggestion was sacrifice.

 
Yes, I am afraid of it as well, other moves allow rabbit capture with the same plan one turn delayed ... this is why I like Ec5 more (what is not on the list). I would hope for camel trade making our a6 horse well positioned ...
 
There are some variants ...
17g Ef4w Ee4w Ed4w Ec4n
17s hc7s de6n cd7w hf3n
18g Ec5s hc6s Ec4e hc5s
18s ee3w hf4e rh5s rh6s
19g Rb1n Rb2n Cd2w Dd5w
 
17g Ef4w Ee4w Ed4w Ec4n
17s hc7s de6n cd7w hf3n
18g Ec5s hc6s Ec4e hc5s
18s ee3w hf4n de7w re8s
19g Rb1n Rb2n Rc1n Dd5w
19s cg6n Rg5n Rg6w Rf6x cg7s
20g Md6w dd7s cc7e Mc6n
20s de5n dd6w de6w
 
We lose Rg6, silver still holds H hostage, but the position looks "stalemated".
« Last Edit: Mar 8th, 2016, 2:14am by Hippo » IP Logged

lucifugero
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Re: 2015 Move 17g
« Reply #12 on: Mar 8th, 2016, 2:18am »
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how about
Cd2w Rb5e Md6w Dd5n
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Hippo
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Re: 2015 Move 17g
« Reply #13 on: Mar 8th, 2016, 7:39am »
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on Mar 8th, 2016, 2:18am, lucifugero wrote:
how about
Cd2w Rb5e Md6w Dd5n

 
Silver will probably pull Dd7, camel should to return d6 next turn with 3 steps remaining ... and the dog is hostaged ... I don't think we could improve this way
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clyring
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Re: 2015 Move 17g
« Reply #14 on: Mar 8th, 2016, 1:43pm »
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I'm not liking our long-term prospects toward the plan of rotating out the camel in order to rotate out the elephant. It seems the only other plan here is to involve the elephant around c6 and try to set fire over there. Toward that end, I think it's important to either directly move our elephant to c5, with the threat of E-Mb5, or look to relocate the Rb5 (onto c6?*) with the idea of pulling and replacing the silver camel without decentralizing our elephant. With that in mind I'm puzzled by the Ra5e step included in many of our suggestions. Are we so worried about the camel coming forward? It seems M-Ra5 b7s a7e prevents us from pushing back the silver rb6 anyway in such lines. The Rb5en idea has appeal for me, but only without the Ra5e followup step, which prevents us from being able to make as quick followup threats with Eb4.
« Last Edit: Mar 8th, 2016, 1:49pm by clyring » IP Logged



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