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Topic: 2009 Postal Mixer (Read 6125 times) |
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Fritzlein
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2009 Postal Mixer
« on: Mar 23rd, 2009, 11:40am » |
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I have signed up. I was thinking of playing fewer games this year because I might not have time, but who I am kidding? I will always make time to play Arimaa.
It looks like the time control is the same as last year, which is great since there seemed to be no time control issues. Last year we had a record low number of timeouts/forfeits/resignations, so we must be doing something right.
Two rules that have provoked lots of discussion in the past:
(for bots) "Between moves the bots algorithm, configuration or even the hardware on with it runs may be changed."
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(for humans) "A player must not use a computer program to suggest or evaluate moves."
I don't care much for rules that can't be enforced, so the permissiveness of the first rule is more to my taste than the restrictiveness of the second rule. Since we can't stop people from doing whatever they want anyway (such as players getting hints from their bots or developers giving hints to their bots), I vote we make it a freestyle tournament. Cyborgs and teams of humans welcome.
Instead of trying to restrict how the moves are generated, let's just ask people to be candid if any entrant in the tournament is not an unassisted bot or an unassisted human. If the developer says, "bot_Bust was going to play a terrible move, so I changed the evaluation to prevent it," let's explicitly allow that and praise the developer's openness. Similarly if a player says, "I played by myself until move 27, but then I consulted a bot to make sure I wasn't missing a goal threat," let's be cool with that too, and indeed be glad it is out in the open instead of happening out of view because we have banned it.
I expect most humans will prefer to play unassisted (because it's more fun), and most developers won't force their bots to make/avoid specific moves (because they would rather learn than win), and there will be no teams of players (because consultation is a hassle). However, since we can't prevent any of these from happening, we should invite them all to happen, and see if there are any takers.
Incidentally, I'm not suggesting that the World Championship or the Computer Championship or the Arimaa Challenge become freestyle. Those three events each have a specific purpose: determining the best human, determining the best bot, and comparing the two. Relaxing the rules in those events would undermine the point of even holding them. But for the Postal Mixer I don't see why we shouldn't get funky.
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| « Last Edit: Mar 23rd, 2009, 11:50am by Fritzlein » |
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chessandgo
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Re: 2009 Postal Mixer
« Reply #1 on: Mar 23rd, 2009, 1:52pm » |
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why not indeed.
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Simon
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Re: 2009 Postal Mixer
« Reply #2 on: Mar 23rd, 2009, 3:33pm » |
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Hmm. The rule that really surprised me (from the 2008 rules according to the page - is there any change this year?) was "A player must not imitate the moves from one game over to another game." Even if this means literal exact copying as in GnoBot's book, I don't see the reason for it at least in H v. H games. After all, you're going to leave the book immediately unless the other player also copies the same game - and why would they do that if they are going to lose by doing so?
I'm less concerned about the no-using-bots rule, because:
a) if I sign up I will probably not use a bot, whereas I would likely copy my opening setup and initial moves from other people if that is allowed
and
b) If the mixer includes people who can't do better than a bot even at postal speeds, they may feel like they are essentially forced to have a bot do their moves for them, and thus feel like they can't meaningfully participate.
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Fritzlein
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Arimaa player #706
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Re: 2009 Postal Mixer
« Reply #3 on: Mar 23rd, 2009, 3:48pm » |
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Good points, Simon. The rule about copying games is not directed at repeating moves from historical games. As you point out, it takes two to tango, and either player in the game can deviate from the historical game on any move. The hypothetical concern being addressed is rather relaying moves. Suppose you get one game against me and another against chessandgo, and you realize that if you play his moves on my board and my replies on his board, you are guaranteed to beat at least one of us! Chessandgo and I would effectively be playing each other through you, which is silly. That hasn't happened in any past postal tournaments; it is just in the rules out of caution. Apparently the rule needs to be made more clear.
As for needing to consult bots to be competitive, I understand the theoretical worry, but I don't think it will come up in practice. Most people will not be consulting bots, and there is usually a wide range of skills represented in the tournament. Since you are paired with the players closest to you in rating, you should get several competitive games. I should add, however, that this is only true for your first four to six games. If you sign up for ten or twelve games, then you will be paired in some mismatches because there won't be enough opponents of similar rating.
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| « Last Edit: Mar 23rd, 2009, 3:51pm by Fritzlein » |
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camelback
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Arimaa perl monger
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Re: 2009 Postal Mixer
« Reply #4 on: Mar 23rd, 2009, 4:47pm » |
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I agree and welcome your proposal Fritz.
I request to modify the Postal Mixer status page, so that there are separate columns for Won, Lost and/or In-progress instead of "win - lose".
It would be really helpful to track the games.
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Simon
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Re: 2009 Postal Mixer
« Reply #5 on: Mar 23rd, 2009, 5:51pm » |
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I hadn't thought of that. Better clarify the rule and leave it in then.
About the bots: I'm still not entirely convinced; I think if there are multiple very weak players and even one is using a bot, others will be strongly tempted to follow suit even if that means that it is basically the bot doing the moves. Besides, suppose the rule change becomes a standard, and bots become strong enough to beat even strong humans postally?
I'm also not that pleased by the pair-by-rating system - I'm not convinced the ratings are that accurate, and skill levels can change over a long postal game. And I think I'd rather play at least slightly stronger players than equal players anyway.
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arimaa_master
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Re: 2009 Postal Mixer
« Reply #6 on: Mar 24th, 2009, 2:23am » |
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on Mar 23rd, 2009, 11:40am, Fritzlein wrote:I have signed up. I was thinking of playing fewer games this year because I might not have time, but who I am kidding? I will always make time to play Arimaa.
It looks like the time control is the same as last year, which is great since there seemed to be no time control issues. Last year we had a record low number of timeouts/forfeits/resignations, so we must be doing something right.
Two rules that have provoked lots of discussion in the past:
(for bots) "Between moves the bots algorithm, configuration or even the hardware on with it runs may be changed."
and
(for humans) "A player must not use a computer program to suggest or evaluate moves."
I don't care much for rules that can't be enforced, so the permissiveness of the first rule is more to my taste than the restrictiveness of the second rule. Since we can't stop people from doing whatever they want anyway (such as players getting hints from their bots or developers giving hints to their bots), I vote we make it a freestyle tournament. Cyborgs and teams of humans welcome.
Instead of trying to restrict how the moves are generated, let's just ask people to be candid if any entrant in the tournament is not an unassisted bot or an unassisted human. If the developer says, "bot_Bust was going to play a terrible move, so I changed the evaluation to prevent it," let's explicitly allow that and praise the developer's openness. Similarly if a player says, "I played by myself until move 27, but then I consulted a bot to make sure I wasn't missing a goal threat," let's be cool with that too, and indeed be glad it is out in the open instead of happening out of view because we have banned it.
I expect most humans will prefer to play unassisted (because it's more fun), and most developers won't force their bots to make/avoid specific moves (because they would rather learn than win), and there will be no teams of players (because consultation is a hassle). However, since we can't prevent any of these from happening, we should invite them all to happen, and see if there are any takers.
Incidentally, I'm not suggesting that the World Championship or the Computer Championship or the Arimaa Challenge become freestyle. Those three events each have a specific purpose: determining the best human, determining the best bot, and comparing the two. Relaxing the rules in those events would undermine the point of even holding them. But for the Postal Mixer I don't see why we shouldn't get funky. |
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I totally agree!
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Fritzlein
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Arimaa player #706
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Re: 2009 Postal Mixer
« Reply #7 on: Mar 27th, 2009, 9:46am » |
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Out of curiosity, are any developers planning on entering their bots this year?
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Tuks
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Re: 2009 Postal Mixer
« Reply #8 on: Mar 27th, 2009, 12:23pm » |
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if they do, i will try much harder on those games than others, gotta keep my dignity, blunders arent acceptable in postal times
btw, omar, can i use the spectator prize to pay for my postal participation, otherwise i have to renew my paypal banking info so that i can pay
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Janzert
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Re: 2009 Postal Mixer
« Reply #9 on: Mar 27th, 2009, 6:23pm » |
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Right now I'm still conflicted about entering OpFor. On the one hand I really want to see bots continue to participate in this. On the other, I was surprised last year on how resource intensive* and for me at least how much of a psychological block to further developing opfor it was.
At the moment though I'm leaning toward entering, but with a max of 8 or 10 games.
Janzert
* It kept opfor thinking constantly 24 hours a day from the start of the mixer till sometime in August last year.
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Fritzlein
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Re: 2009 Postal Mixer
« Reply #10 on: Mar 27th, 2009, 6:45pm » |
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One thing to consider in addition to reducing the number of games is reducing the thinking time to only an hour per move. With ten games and an hour per move, OpFor could get in all its moves overnight (not all opponents will have moved), leaving the computer it is running on free all day, every day.
I understand about the psychological block to development, but perhaps it would work differently if OpFor were only on-line while you were sleeping. Not only do the rules allow mid-tournament changes, after OpFor's incredible performance last year you have nothing prove in terms of won-lost record. If you made experimental changes that weakened OpFor for for one night, and decided the next morning you had to roll back, I personally would be excited by the active development rather than disappointed by the weak move.
Even running a computer all night is an electricity expense, so I understand if you think twice before committing to that. I just wanted to suggest the option in case it tips the balance towards participation. Just looking back at the Forum post from the last Postal Mixer, OpFor was the talk of the tourney.
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99of9
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Re: 2009 Postal Mixer
« Reply #11 on: Mar 28th, 2009, 4:57am » |
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I am unlikely to enter Gnobot in the postal. It will continue to play in the continuous tourney when that restarts.
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Fritzlein
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Arimaa player #706
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Re: 2009 Postal Mixer
« Reply #12 on: Mar 28th, 2009, 5:25am » |
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Hopefully I will be restarting the Continuous Tournament in May; thanks for GnoBot's past and future participation in that event.
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omar
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Re: 2009 Postal Mixer
« Reply #13 on: Mar 29th, 2009, 9:44am » |
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on Mar 27th, 2009, 12:23pm, Tuks wrote:if they do, i will try much harder on those games than others, gotta keep my dignity, blunders arent acceptable in postal times
btw, omar, can i use the spectator prize to pay for my postal participation, otherwise i have to renew my paypal banking info so that i can pay |
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Yes, definitely.
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omar
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Re: 2009 Postal Mixer
« Reply #14 on: Mar 29th, 2009, 10:24am » |
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on Mar 23rd, 2009, 4:47pm, camelback wrote:I agree and welcome your proposal Fritz.
I request to modify the Postal Mixer status page, so that there are separate columns for Won, Lost and/or In-progress instead of "win - lose".
It would be really helpful to track the games. |
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I'll make this change. Thanks for the suggestion.
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