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Topic: Arimaa Team League? (Read 9265 times) |
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omar
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Re: Arimaa Team League?
« Reply #15 on: Oct 20th, 2009, 10:46am » |
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This forum doesn't have a built in survey feature. You can setup a survey on sites like
http://www.surveygizmo.com/
search for 'survey tools' to find others.
Also I can setup a registration page to allow players to register for the team leagues.
How about if someone sets up a wiki page describing how the team leagues would work along with a link to the survey and registration page.
novacat: you should be able to look in your recent games under HH games to find the id. Also rather than sending a PM through the forum you could try using the 'Play Now'-'Invite Friend' option to send a message along with the game.
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megajester
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Re: Arimaa Team League?
« Reply #16 on: Oct 20th, 2009, 3:26pm » |
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Well, as is always the tradition with bright ideas, whoever thought of it gets to do the donkey work. With which I have no problem if no one else has any objection 
(By the way, on the question of rescheduling games, my suggestion for now is that anyone who participates in the league also provides an email address. We could add a page in the wiki with the players listed alphabetically with their league ratings and email addresses. Plus we could say that all correspondence between players regarding rescheduling be cc'd to the league co-ordinator to help us determine who forfeits if neither player turns up.)
Looking at all the other suggestions that have come through, here is my latest draft proposal. I know it's a bit wordy, but I think this is the easiest solution for the participants and reasonably accommodates everybody's concerns. If you like I can put it up on the wiki just as soon as Omar gives me a login.
I have also set up a preliminary survey (thanks for that link Omar), which can be edited if you think it's necessary. Perhaps we could link it somewhere in the gameroom? It is live by the way, so feel free to fill it in...
http://www.surveygizmo.com/s/193817/arimaa-world-league-preliminary-surv ey
INTRODUCTION
Our first league shall be United States, European Union, Rest of the World (US v EU v ROW), because this is our most flexible format to start off with. I think the "Arimaa World League" has a nice ring to it.
Players interested in the league will submit their names (email addresses ?) and which team they will play for to the league co-ordinator (LC) before the start date. (I think this will be after the WC so, 1 March 2010? I don't know the schedule so, Omar?...) Players will specify which games they think they would be available for.
START
On the start date the LC will check how many players applied per team and their average rating. He will use this to determine how many games will be played in each match, and what the average rating ceiling will be.
To make things simple we will accept each player's rating on the start date as his rating throughout the league. Players may join the league at any stage, his rating on the date of acceptance will be taken as his rating throughout the league. (An exception to this would be if a player's rating goes up or down by a substantial amount. Any captain may apply for any player's league rating to be adjusted in case of variation exceeding 150 points, in fact that player's captain is honor-bound to do so.)
An example scenario: US, 12 players applied with an average rating of 1800; EU, 8 players applied with an average rating of 1900; ROW, 10 players applied with an average rating of 1700. LC might decide that each match will consist of 5 games, where the players will have an maximum average rating of 1850. We could appoint a committee (the Arimaa World League Committee) to approve this decision.
LC invites the top players from all three sides to step forward as captains. If the top player declines to be captain the next highest player will be invited.
MATCH CYCLE
The first match cycle will begin within 2 weeks of the start date. A match cycle consists of Week 1 and Week 2 with no gap in between matches, the following week being Week 1 of the next match cycle.
Before each match cycle: Team captains will submit their teams' roster for the match. The players' average rating shall not exceed the ceiling and be in order of strongest player first. Players may play in as many or as few matches as the captain deems fit. The captain would of course be expected to consult his teammates. The roster must be submitted by Week 1, ie. before the end of Week 2 of the previous match.
Week 1: LC will schedule all games in the match sometime in Week 2. It is the team captain's responsibility to make sure all players submit preferred gaming times on the scheduler tool. Otherwise the LC will have to guess which time will be best. Players may request adjustments to match times, and if necessary captains may request to substitute players after submitting the roster, but this MUST BE DONE BEFORE WEEK 2 and the average rating ceiling shall not be exceeded under any circumstances.
Week 2: Games are played. Players who fail to turn up forfeit. If neither player turns up LC shall adjudicate.
At the end of Week 2 the commentator (possibly the LC) could post a bulletin with results, standings, commentary, quotes from the players etc in a special section in the forum.
MATCH SCHEDULE
Match 1 (week 2)
US Gold v EU Silver
Match 2 (week 4)
EU Gold v ROW Silver
Match 3 (week 6)
ROW Gold v US Silver
Match 4 (week 8 )
EU Gold v US Silver
Match 5 (week 10)
ROW Gold v EU Silver
Match 6 (week 12)
US Gold v ROW Silver
And if needed:
Tiebreaker Semi Final (week 14)
2nd seed v 3rd seed
3-game match (average rating ceiling waivered)
Table 1: Gold v Silver
Table 2: Silver v Gold
Table 3: Gold v Silver
Tiebreaker Final (week 16)
Winner v 1st seed (probably US)
3-game match, same format
This proposed schedule is designed so that each team plays no more than two matches consecutively. The league would be over in 3 to 4 months, by which time we will know all we need to about the long-term viability of the League.
SCORING
A win is one point. Therefore in the example scenario 5 points would be available in each match.
ENFORCEMENT
Any abuse of the rules may be punished by disqualification (player) or docking of points (team). The LC will consult the AWLC before any such action is taken.
GOING FORWARD...
The AWLC would make the final decision about any changes to the league format, operation, etc.
I know some bits may sound a bit fastidious, even draconian, but I'm thinking that whatever happens we want a guaranteed result. Most players would not need to concern themselves with everything, we would send them all an email just telling them what they need to know.
Please let me know what you think.
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| « Last Edit: Oct 22nd, 2009, 9:06am by megajester » |
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chessandgo
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Arimaa player #1889
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Re: Arimaa Team League?
« Reply #17 on: Oct 21st, 2009, 4:28am » |
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Hey guys,
sounds like a cool idea!
Unfortunately I have very little time for arimaa these days, so I won't be playing, but have fun!
Jean
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ChrisB
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Re: Arimaa Team League?
« Reply #18 on: Oct 23rd, 2009, 12:33am » |
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I would be interested in playing. Thanks, megajester, for getting this going.
The proposed structure seems well designed to provide close competition between the teams. The administrative infrastructure seems fairly complex, but if we don't get volunteers to handle that part, I think we could work things out more informally.
I offer for consideration the following add-on proposal, which could significantly increase the number of H-H games while having a only a minor effect on the final score:
A. For each match, team members not on the roster can still sign up to play games. These additional games would have only a minor effect on the final score, say one point allocated for ALL of these additional games.
B. The highest rated player from team A that signs up for these additional games plays the highest rated player from team B that signs up. Correspondingly, second highest from A plays second highest from B, etc.
C. If the number of additional player from one team exceeds that from the other team by two or more, the lowest rated members from the team with more sign-ups could play each other (intra-team games).
D. If an odd number of additional players sign up, the last player to sign up from the team with the greater number of sign-ups has to sit out. For example, if 6 players sign up from team A and 3 from team B, the last sign-up from team A has to sit out. Then of the remaining 5 players from team A, the top 3 rated players play the 3 who signed up from team B and the number 4 and 5 players from team A can play each other.
E. One possible way to score these additional games:
One point is allocated for ALL of these games combined.
For inter-team games, team of winning player gets 2 sub-points and team of losing player gets 1 sub-point provided losing player finishes game.
For intra-team game, the team of the two players gets 1 sub-point, provided players play complete game.
The number of sub-points acquired by each team are then divided by total number of sub-points to determined how much of the one point is allocated to each team. Continuing with the above example, if team A wins two of the three inter-team games, those three games are all complete games, and the two additional players from team A play a complete intra-team game, then team A gets 6 sup-points and team B gets 4. So team A gets 0.6 points from these additional games and team B gets 0.4 points. If in the roster games, team A won 2 and team B won 3, the final score for the match would be 2.6 for team A and 3.4 for team B.
NOTES:
* What I like most about this proposal is that if gives almost every player who wants to play in a match the opportunity to play a game. The only player who might get left out is the last to sign up from the team with the greater number of sign-ups. However, if the number of sign-ups near the end of the sign up period is odd, that may encourage a waivering player to sign up to even out the number of players and help that player's team.
* I think mismatches would be more likely in these additional games than in the roster game, but at least the losing player can help the team by playing a complete game.
* I guess if this proposal, or something similar, is adopted, a play-off would be less likely.
* The team with the greater number of players would have an advantage in getting a larger share of the one point, but that could be an incentive for teams to recruit more players.
Of course, improvements or simplifications are most welcome.
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| « Last Edit: Oct 23rd, 2009, 2:06am by ChrisB » |
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Fritzlein
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Re: Arimaa Team League?
« Reply #19 on: Oct 23rd, 2009, 6:27am » |
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Thanks for drafting some rules, megajester. I think that it is a good idea to go with the US vs EU vs ROW as an executive decision rather than taking a poll. As the movie line goes, "If you build it, they will come."
If it turns out that the three teams are relatively even, then the rating cap won't be necessary. We can simply let each team field the N strongest players it has that are available on game week. If the teams are uneven, then we can impose the average rating cap, although that is potentially slightly problematic due to ratings abuse. We would have to keep our eyes peeled for signs of manipulated ratings.
If there is a cap on average rating, it would probably scuttle ChrisB's idea of having extra boards decide a participation point. If strong players are sitting off the main boards due to a rating cap, then the extra boards are likely to be horrendous mismatches every week. However, if the teams are sufficiently even that there are no restrictions on who is playing each board, then I think the participation point is a great idea.
I don't think we can take chessandgo's non-participation as too indicative of the strength of the teams this far in advance. Who knows how busy he will be in six months, or how busy any of us will be? Let's set up a reasonable framework and adjust at signup time if necessary.
If the teams that actually sign up are lopsided in favor of the US, then we can still consider Adanac's suggestion of splitting the US (if turnout is heavy) or my suggestion of combining the EU and ROW (if turnout is light). If we split the US, we might split it into Texas and ROUS. If there is some good geographic way to balance teams, so that there is no rating restriction and thus less potential for ratings abuse, I would lean towards using geography rather than ratings. But there's not much point debating it in advance; we just have to see who wants to play when the rubber hits the road.
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| « Last Edit: Oct 23rd, 2009, 6:30am by Fritzlein » |
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megajester
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Re: Arimaa Team League?
« Reply #20 on: Oct 23rd, 2009, 9:27am » |
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Part of the idea behind the rating cap is that it gives team captains flexibility when setting the roster for each match. Regardless of how well balanced the teams are, without a rating cap the captains will always field the best players available.
However if we do have a rating cap, it's not a complete disaster if one or more of the players, even a strong one, can't play in a given match. Plus the teams are always evenly matched.
For example: Lets say one of the sides has 7 players apply with ratings of 2400, 2200, 2100, 1900, 1800, 1400. This makes for an average of 1686. Lets say that for the league we set the rating ceiling at 2000 with a 4-player roster.
If the captain were to field the top two players on any given match the other two players would have to have an average rating of 1700, which is only achievable by fielding the weakest players. This means he will have to mix up the roster for each match. So it's not a problem if the players who sign up are not prepared to play in each match, and even if they are willing to play the captain can promise them a place in the roster in the next match. This is part of the reason for the questions in the survey, "How many matches would you be up for?" and "Can you say you would DEFINITELY sign up?" We can look at the response to these questions when determining the size of the roster and the rating ceiling. (And Fritz, I've added a question asking which team they would play for...)
It would be a shame if players willing to play were told to wait until the next match. But I'd rather that than risk having a captain unable to submit a full roster. I don't think there are many players who would lose interest just because they have to wait to play in the next match. I like your idea ChrisB, I'm just worried it will make things a bit complicated, especially seeing as this is a pilot.
I do like this idea of awarding points to players who finish their games. Maybe we could say 3 points to the winner and 1 to the loser if he plays to the end.
As for admin, true, the co-ordinator and the captains would be fairly busy. But that's part of the rationale behind having one match every 2 weeks. I would be happy to be the co-ordinator. The captains could use a special section in the forum to liaise with players, and then just message me with the roster. When I get the roster I could quickly check the players' present ratings against their ratings at the beginning of the league, and readjust if necessary in line with the 150-point rule.
By the way, I'm thrilled to have such a response. Thanks for all your suggestions and support
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qswanger
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Re: Arimaa Team League?
« Reply #21 on: Oct 23rd, 2009, 12:42pm » |
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What about cool, creative, wacky team names?
Some involving song lyrics include:
"Who let the dogs out?",
"Wild horses (can't drag me away)",
A few cliches:
"Raining cats and dogs",
"Going at it like rabbits",
And now some original, really cheesy suggestions:
"The dromedary destroyers"
"The bactrian bafflers"
"The pachyderm pushers"
Please add to this list!
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| « Last Edit: Oct 23rd, 2009, 12:47pm by qswanger » |
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megajester
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Re: Arimaa Team League?
« Reply #22 on: Oct 23rd, 2009, 10:39pm » |
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lol. You're a funny guy qswanger, you can stay 
I just think we might have trouble inspiring team loyalty for "Going-At-It-Like-Rabbits United".
If this one goes well I had been thinking we might have "clubs." This would also solve the problem of lopsided US participation. You make one team "Team America" the other "Bald Eagles". Or whatever. And then instead of EU and ROW you could have "Viva Europa" and "Ring of Fire" (ie Pacific).
The possibilities are ennnnnndless...
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omar
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Re: Arimaa Team League?
« Reply #23 on: Oct 24th, 2009, 5:04pm » |
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Just posted a link to the survey in he gameroom and also sent a tweet for it.
chessandgo: We'll miss having you on the opposing team. It will be interesting to see if the other EU players can talk you into playing
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RonWeasley
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Re: Arimaa Team League?
« Reply #24 on: Oct 27th, 2009, 4:01am » |
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on Oct 23rd, 2009, 12:42pm, qswanger wrote:What about cool, creative, wacky team names?
Some involving song lyrics include:
"Who let the dogs out?",
"Wild horses (can't drag me away)",
A few cliches:
"Raining cats and dogs",
"Going at it like rabbits",
And now some original, really cheesy suggestions:
"The dromedary destroyers"
"The bactrian bafflers"
"The pachyderm pushers"
Please add to this list!
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"Horses Behind"
"Junk in the Trunk"
"Load of Trap"
"Camel Intense"
"15 Minutes of Frame"
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Arimabuff
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Re: Arimaa Team League?
« Reply #25 on: Oct 27th, 2009, 6:40am » |
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on Oct 27th, 2009, 4:01am, RonWeasley wrote:
"Horses Behind"
"Junk in the Trunk"
"Load of Trap"
"Camel Intense"
"15 Minutes of Frame" |
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"Menagerie a Trois"
"Doggie stylers"
"Hot Tin Roof Cats"
"Apocalyptic Horses"
"Unforgettable Elephants"
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camelback
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Re: Arimaa Team League?
« Reply #26 on: Oct 28th, 2009, 3:57pm » |
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Here are some more names
hunters-r-us
touchdown rabbits
bunny bunch
swarming sidekicks
freezing freaks
cuddlers and huddlers
trapping troop
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megajester
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Re: Arimaa Team League?
« Reply #28 on: Oct 31st, 2009, 4:08pm » |
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Question for you all...
At the moment we're thinking of going US, EU, ROW right? However all the indications are that the EU and ROW put together is gonna come to the same number as the US. So. What I'm thinking is a fourth team...
But I'm thinking that just "North US/South US" or "East Coast/West Coast" is gonna be a bit boring...
And joking aside there's clearly something to be said for "cool" team names that feel a bit more sporty...
...because apart from anything else, going forward we want to be able to add more teams. However if we go US v EU v ROW we're gonna end up splitting them or even dissolving them at some point and starting again...
Interestingly a lot of our ROW players who responded to the survey are actually Canadian or Australian, ie. Pacific countries...
What if we said the teams were:
Yankees
Rockies
Ring of Fire
Europa
So "Yankees" would be East Coast US (sort-of, forgive me Americans if I've totally misunderstood this word's vibe) and "Rockies" would be West Coast. You could get a real rivalry going there. "Ring of Fire" would be any country bordering the Pacific (Australia, Japan, Canada etc.) And "Europa" because obviously it sounds cooler than "European Union" and it would include countries that technically aren't part of the EU, like Switzerland, Norway, Russia, the Balkans, the Caucasus, (ahem) Turkey...
And still anyone could play for anyone. If someone feels like signing up with, say, the Rockies they can. In fact I think Ring of Fire sounds so cool, you can forget the Pacific thing, I'd play for 'em 
But seriously, I think something like this would be the coolest way to split the US,
AND have a sporty feel,
AND have an "expandable" league,
AND still keep the patriotism thing for those who want it.
I mean, what could be more emotionless than "the Rest of the World", defined by what it isn't. But all of these names can inspire loyalty for one reason or another...
PS. I've fleshed out the wiki page, look forward to hearing your thoughts...
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| « Last Edit: Nov 2nd, 2009, 8:46am by megajester » |
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omar
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Re: Arimaa Team League?
« Reply #29 on: Nov 5th, 2009, 11:15am » |
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I really like the idea of having sporty team names and allowing anyone to play for any team. Nice set of names you came up with
Some suggestions.
In the yearly championship events there is a coordinator and director. The coordinator is in charge of running the pairing program and setting up the games and does not make any decisions; thus one of the players can be a coordinator. The director makes decisions when odd cases arise that aren't covered in the predefined rules; also decides if a particular case fits the predefined rules. The director cannot be a player. I am assuming the LC mentioned in the wiki page:
http://arimaa.com/arimaa/mwiki/index.php/2010_Arimaa_World_League
serves a role similar to the coordinator I mentioned above. You might want to consider having a single person director to over see the event rather than a committee since committees would take longer to make decisions since all members have to meet, discuss, vote, etc.
I would suggest not having a average rating ceiling. Having it helps to make the teams equal, but if one team was overly strong, I am sure the other teams would find ways to recruit some strong players too. Having it seems to complicate things a little and requires having more rules.
You might want to mention in the wiki that the overall format for the event is basically a round robin where each team plays every other team once.
When one team plays another how is the pairing done? Is it by sorting the players of each team based on rating (WHR ratings I assume) and pairing them in order? Or does the captain of each team submits the order of the players.
What will be the size of the teams? Is it fixed or can it vary from round to round. For example if in one round the team with the least number of players has only 3 players only the top 3 players from the other teams will be paired. If the size of the teams is fixed, what happens if a team does not have enough players in one round?
In determining the winning team, what happens if the score of two teams is tied. What would be the tie breaker?
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| « Last Edit: Nov 6th, 2009, 6:29am by omar » |
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