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Topic: 2011 World Championship (Read 21190 times) |
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Janzert
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Re: 2011 World Championship
« Reply #75 on: Jan 6th, 2011, 4:31pm » |
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on Jan 5th, 2011, 10:42am, omar wrote:
It gets stuck on pairing round 3 when I try it with 32 players. Running one tournament with 20 players takes about 8 seconds. When I go to 22 players it gets stuck (I waited for 5 minutes) on pairing round 2.
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Hmm, this is rather disappointing I thought the algorithm in the new code was suppose to scale much better than this.
Also could someone point me at the location of the tournament simulation software, I've lost track of it.
Janzert
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omar
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Re: 2011 World Championship
« Reply #76 on: Jan 6th, 2011, 9:07pm » |
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on Jan 6th, 2011, 3:14pm, Hippo wrote:
Wow, now when I read Omar's conditions, they are formulated such that each edge could have been assigned the "badness vector" ... so it could really work. |
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I just wrote the script, the credit for those conditions should go to Karl.
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| « Last Edit: Jan 8th, 2011, 12:58pm by omar » |
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Fritzlein
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Re: 2011 World Championship
« Reply #78 on: Jan 6th, 2011, 10:28pm » |
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on Jan 6th, 2011, 4:31pm, Janzert wrote:| Hmm, this is rather disappointing I thought the algorithm in the new code was suppose to scale much better than this. |
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There is no new FTE code. That's still doublep's branch-and-bound algorithm. The code that scales up to allow the larger tournaments was always Swiss pairing code not guaranteed to find a global optimum.
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| « Last Edit: Jan 6th, 2011, 10:29pm by Fritzlein » |
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megamau
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Re: 2011 World Championship
« Reply #79 on: Jan 7th, 2011, 7:48am » |
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Scheduling request
To Chessandgo:
Would you have problem to move our game from Saturday 5 pm ?
I have a go tournament on saturday and I realized that I would not be in time in coming back hom at 5.
I would prefer Sunday or Saturday at a later hour (7 ot 8 pm) or even today if you read this in time.
If it is not possible for you no problem, I will skip the last turn of the go tournament.
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ocmiente
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Re: 2011 World Championship
« Reply #80 on: Jan 7th, 2011, 12:00pm » |
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on Jan 6th, 2011, 8:25am, Fritzlein wrote:
Intuitively, one must suspect that finding an "optimal" pairing can't be done quickly. It seems reasonable that meeting a stringent list of desirability criterion would necessarily have exponential running time, i.e. would in essence be equivalent to examining every possible pairing and seeing which is best.
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I don't necessarily agree that an optimal pairing algorithm has to take exponential running time.
However, I'm thinking that generally this whole discussion about optimal pairings is not based on any established measures of what makes a tournament pairing good. If we have some, then please let me know. I am very interested to see what they are.
This is what I think would be a good measure of the 'goodness' of a tournament pairing system. It has to do with the fact that the player rating going into the tournament is not his actual, or 'true' rating - and that that 'true' rating can never really be known. If we did know a players 'true' rating, then there would be no need for a tournament. We would just call the player with the highest rating the champ, knowing that that player is the best. For the sake of obtaining a tournament goodness measure, we can stipulate that we do know the 'true' rating of players. Then we can begin with a data set that has the usual ratings, and also assign to each player a 'true' rating that the pairing algorithm never sees. The 'true' rating would be used in all game simulations to determine the winner of the matches, and the other, visible to everyone, normal rating would be used by the pairing algorithm. After the tournament is fully simulated, the goodness of the pairing algorithm can be measured by seeing how often the player with the highest 'true' rating wins the tournament, etc.
In this way, we could compare different tournament pairing algorithms in an unbiased fashion.
[Edit] and one other tournament goodness measuring idea. At the beginning of the tournament assign the player with the highest 'true' rating one loss. See how often that player wins the tournament then. This would measure some 'recoverability' factor.
Of course, maybe the point of the tournament isn't to find the best player but to have the most exciting set of games. Then the measure would be quite different - like minimizing the square of the sum of the ratings differences between matched players each round, avoiding rematches within groups of players with equal numbers of losses whenever possible.
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| « Last Edit: Jan 7th, 2011, 6:20pm by ocmiente » |
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Janzert
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Re: 2011 World Championship
« Reply #81 on: Jan 7th, 2011, 7:28pm » |
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Ocmiente, see the tournament simulation software Omar linked to above. Running various tournament formats with differing apparent and true ratings is exactly what it does.
Janzert
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chessandgo
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Re: 2011 World Championship
« Reply #82 on: Jan 8th, 2011, 3:41am » |
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on Jan 7th, 2011, 7:48am, megamau wrote:Scheduling request
To Chessandgo:
Would you have problem to move our game from Saturday 5 pm ?
I have a go tournament on saturday and I realized that I would not be in time in coming back hom at 5.
I would prefer Sunday or Saturday at a later hour (7 ot 8 pm) or even today if you read this in time.
If it is not possible for you no problem, I will skip the last turn of the go tournament. |
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Sorry, I've just seen your PM and this message. I'm fine with playing at the times you suggest. Let's say tomorrow at 8pm (CET) for example, ie slot 92. Would that be ok if we change the game time at such short notice?
Jean
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| « Last Edit: Jan 8th, 2011, 3:42am by chessandgo » |
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megamau
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Re: 2011 World Championship
« Reply #83 on: Jan 8th, 2011, 6:36am » |
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ok. Tomorrow at 8 is petfect.
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RonWeasley
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Re: 2011 World Championship
« Reply #84 on: Jan 8th, 2011, 8:11am » |
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on Jan 8th, 2011, 6:36am, megamau wrote:ok. Tomorrow at 8 is petfect.
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Game time change request approved.
TD
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RonWeasley
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Re: 2011 World Championship
« Reply #85 on: Jan 8th, 2011, 8:24am » |
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All,
I'm using a "3g rule" for connection dropouts. It's not in the tournament rules, but we've used it in years past and it came up in the ChrisB-Fritzlein game.
If a player's connection drops out before move 3g has been sent, causing the other player to win on time, I'm allowing the winning player to choose either to accept the win or to restart the game completely.
This allows players to accept a technical win according to the rules. It also allows the winner the opportunity to play the full game he was preparing for. In the past, players seem to like this option.
I will be using the "3g rule" throughout the tournament.
TD
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qswanger
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Re: 2011 World Championship
« Reply #86 on: Jan 9th, 2011, 10:36pm » |
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I waited until almost the last minute before saying something here because I was trying to see if there was any way I could accommodate the Mon 5:00 pm game time that somehow got determined for me, but I simply cannot get away with it.  I followed the recommended strategy of what to do if you could not come up with 60 game times by listing the remaining number of times left as the least preferred times for me. The times I listed as 5th choice I was essentially treating as random since all of the times I was not able to play with any preference higher than the lowest were equally unplayable for me because of my work and child custody schedule. I don't know what can be done now, but I am simply not able to play Monday at 5:00pm EST as I will still be at work. How did this time get selected? I'm sure I selected at least 20 times where I was at least able to play for a few hours, no matter how inconvenient for me (i.e., some were even 1:00 AM on the weekend ... I'd be blurry eyed, but still available if needed).
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Tuks
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Re: 2011 World Championship
« Reply #87 on: Jan 10th, 2011, 1:48am » |
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maybe you should recommend a time then... because i can't really guess when you can play,  , im free 8 hours before our time maybe even three hours after, and on tuesday i am completely free, so pick say three times so i can have some choice. I do have an exam for three hours in an hours time so i won't get back to you until 4:30 minutes from this post time.
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Tuks
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Re: 2011 World Championship
« Reply #88 on: Jan 10th, 2011, 1:50am » |
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i'm thinking 2 hours later would be fine for you, or do you work late? its 10 p.m my time, currently (i'm 5 hours ahead of you...) but i can go to bed later
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qswanger
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Re: 2011 World Championship
« Reply #89 on: Jan 10th, 2011, 8:45am » |
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Well, Fritzlein responded with some suggestions and opinions about my scheduling issue and scheduling difficulties in general and I was about to quote him in my reply, but the post must have been deleted or something. Anyway, since Tuesday apparently will conflict with the next round and since I cannot play at the Mon 5:00pm EST time-slot (the last one available in the scheduler?) and since I also cannot play past that today apparently for the same reason then I guess I will take a bye or a forfeit or whatever the rules state must happen. Unfortunate. I'm at work now until the rest of the day so probably I will not be able to monitor the board for another response today but instead will wait and see if I get any better luck out of that scheduler for the next round. Thank you.
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