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Topic: Bot-bashing Hall of Fame (Read 10993 times) |
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PMertens
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Re: Bot-bashing Hall of Fame
« Reply #45 on: Jun 24th, 2005, 10:00pm » |
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Bomb_Blitz with 1 camel and 2 dogs 
Game 16318
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| « Last Edit: Jun 26th, 2005, 4:48pm by PMertens » |
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PMertens
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Re: Bot-bashing Hall of Fame
« Reply #46 on: Jun 28th, 2005, 12:29pm » |
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Omar, is there an official statement wether or not you are planning to add games against Blitz and other non-stable bots to the botbashing list ?
While I still got the record for Bomb_Blitz (MDDR) its safe to suggest to officially limit listed games to the fixed versions.
If we do not do that there might be an inflation of records against all those many variations of bots.
I am not saying to remove those records against unstable versions that are already listed, since people might not like it (for example some of those fastest games will be fastest forever  )
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PMertens
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Re: Bot-bashing Hall of Fame
« Reply #47 on: Jun 28th, 2005, 1:14pm » |
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Sorry Omar - seems like I cannot read
Just found the official statement 
(its on the start_bot page)
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PMertens
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Re: Bot-bashing Hall of Fame
« Reply #48 on: Jun 28th, 2005, 2:02pm » |
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ok, MDD for Bomb P2 (16450)
now, what do we learn from this game ?
1) MDD is no problem against P2 (toby will probably prove MDDC soon)
2) In a way P2 is easier than Blitz since there seem not to be random moves
3) the "no cat save against rabbit" problem seems not to happen here - therefore I assume it might be a problem of not finished movesearch.
What I mean is that a complete P2 might still be better than a P2.5
4) Blitz used more time for most moves - but only for noncritical moves - as soon as situations got a little more complex P2 used 30secs or more.
Meaning:
Blitz gets less than P2 in troubled situations, which might explain some moves
Blitz has a slightly deeper search in stable situations - but there is nothing to gain out of 0.5 extra ply
I really would like P3/P4 - that might be much more interesting
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| « Last Edit: Jun 28th, 2005, 2:02pm by PMertens » |
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PMertens
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Arimaa player #692
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Re: Bot-bashing Hall of Fame
« Reply #49 on: Jun 28th, 2005, 3:35pm » |
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Quote:| You know how I hate to disagree with you |
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dont worry, I got used to it
Quote:but toby aka 99of9 has yet to win any Mxxx challenge against any version of Bomb, at least as far as I know.
Blind faith is a touching thing especially coming from an agnostic but if it's a rating thing why not credit Fritz of a MHH challenge then?
( note to 99 : This is in NO way a shot at you, just a funny remark in passing ) |
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I disagree
umption that he will be able to play MDDC is not based on his rating but on the different playstyle of P2 compared to Blitz
Quote:| Thanks for making my point and the fact that the human player has only 15s of thinking time only adds to the difficulty. |
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surely 15s adds to the difficulty to play - but I doubt that counts for either you or me in this kind of challenge, since the whole point of the challenge is never to face a complicated situation - we would get killed due to material disadvantage.
15s against a random/human player might be challenging, but not against a stable bot playing at this "low" level (P2)
Quote:| How do you know that these 30sec have the same value as 30sec for blitz since they're machine dependant. For all we know p2 ran at half the speed of blitz and therefore never exceeded it's machine equivalent time. |
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this is based on the assumption that both are running on the same machine - and there was no other game during my experiment
Anyway you missed the point, because P2 used up to 30 secs on complicated and 3 secs on simple moves
No matter the load this shows us that a time dependant bot works just the wrong way: short sighted at the infight, but long foresight at stable position with nothing to see ahead
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PMertens
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Re: Bot-bashing Hall of Fame
« Reply #50 on: Jun 29th, 2005, 1:02am » |
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If I say that somebody will PROBABLY achieve a certain goal someday than I am not exactly praising him in advance for achieving it.
To praise him for trying should be allowed.
Anyway ... I try not to use this topic to discuss me but rather the bots we play.
Certainly the majority of readers will agree.
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PMertens
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Re: Bot-bashing Hall of Fame
« Reply #51 on: Jun 29th, 2005, 1:13am » |
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Quote:| What keeps Bomb or any other bot to save up time when the position is stable and use let say one min. of it when the position warrants it? |
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you mean besides the programmer ?
Quote:| THe bot has to do what we do trying to make a good compromise between the time left and the criticality of the position. |
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Even if that is what should be it is not.
Bomb_Blitz does not manage its time that way.
Quote:| So it's not so much a time-dependant problem as a bot-programming one. |
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Of course - but since it is implemented that way it is now a time-dependant problem.
And by the way Bomb_P2 does not search deeper in complex situations - it just takes longer.
If Bomb_Blitz would do the same it would have a fixed search depth, no ?
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99of9
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Re: Bot-bashing Hall of Fame
« Reply #52 on: Jun 29th, 2005, 2:22am » |
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Actually the full version of bomb does already have something like this. I'm not sure whether P2 uses it.
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99of9
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Re: Bot-bashing Hall of Fame
« Reply #53 on: Jun 29th, 2005, 3:30am » |
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PMertens:
Quote:| toby will probably prove MDDC soon |
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on Jun 28th, 2005, 2:46pm, Arimanator wrote:
You know how I hate to disagree with you but toby aka 99of9 has yet to win any Mxxx challenge against any version of Bomb, at least as far as I know.
Blind faith is a touching thing especially coming from an agnostic but if it's a rating thing why not credit Fritz of a MHH challenge then?  |
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Perhaps his faith was less blind than you think.
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PMertens
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Re: Bot-bashing Hall of Fame
« Reply #54 on: Jun 29th, 2005, 3:38am » |
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good job - and fast 
I am proud of you - my personal hero
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99of9
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Re: Bot-bashing Hall of Fame
« Reply #55 on: Jun 29th, 2005, 3:44am » |
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You're going to end up with a lot of personal heroes if you're not careful!
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PMertens
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Arimaa player #692
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Re: Bot-bashing Hall of Fame
« Reply #56 on: Jun 29th, 2005, 3:58am » |
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lol
dont worry, the list of people who actually try this is limited
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99of9
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Re: Bot-bashing Hall of Fame
« Reply #57 on: Jun 29th, 2005, 6:42am » |
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on Jun 29th, 2005, 4:25am, Arimanator wrote:
Thanks
Quote:| But are you sure that everything went according to plan in that game? |
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No. So?
Quote:| I would more describe it as a tribute to perseverance than anything else some people myself included would have long given up at that point. |
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Yes, some would. On the other hand, some would have persevered by playing many times the number of games to achieve the same thing. It's much of a muchness as far as I'm concerned.
(btw I take Omar's definition of arimaa-sportsmanship quite seriously.)
Quote:| In fact I don't see any point of doing any kind of bot bashing after a game like that. |
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I'm disappointed that I've put you off botbashing - I think you're quite good at it. I'd suggest you simply add this kind of methodology to your arsenal and keep cracking at them.
Quote:| I once won against bot clueless that way ( meaning I found a huge gap in its defense while it was tearing my camp apart) and Fritz told me that I made mistakes that should have been fatal had clueless just moved a couple of pieces in a more appropriate place, I wasn't pleased by that comment at that time but I've come to see their wisdom. |
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Yes, I recall, the infamous game 13753. I agree this game is similar (apart from the handicap). In fact, I fully agree that I used tricks in this game, and exploited known weaknesses of bots. I personally think that this is acceptable in a botbashing game.
Quote:| Now about that faith you obviously either didn't get the point or are joking. |
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Umm... I guess I didn't get the point.
Quote:| Just because someone is buttering you up doesn't mean that everything he says is good or even justified. |
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Wise words. Respectfully, however, I disagree with your opinion that his prediction was unjustified.
Quote:| Now I've never had any esteem for soothsayers , and it would have taken one to predict that you would have won here ( Under the hypothesis that these people had any power at all). |
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I don't think anyone was predicting that I would do it in that exact game. However, given that you now realise the possibility of playing to exploit this particular weakness, surely you admit that the chance of me winning was high enough to make the prediction that Paul actually made.
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PMertens
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Arimaa player #692
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Re: Bot-bashing Hall of Fame
« Reply #58 on: Jun 29th, 2005, 5:27pm » |
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Bot_Bomb P2 with MDDCR (16480)
oh and for the record:
this time I planned to do it that way
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| « Last Edit: Jun 29th, 2005, 9:34pm by PMertens » |
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omar
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Re: Bot-bashing Hall of Fame
« Reply #59 on: Jul 1st, 2005, 12:56pm » |
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on Jun 29th, 2005, 5:27pm, PMertens wrote:Bot_Bomb P2 with MDDCR (16480)
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Wow, that was an amazing game. And I see it's been added to the bot bashers page. Great
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