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Topic: Bot-bashing Hall of Fame (Read 10999 times) |
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99of9
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Re: Bot-bashing Hall of Fame
« Reply #75 on: Aug 3rd, 2005, 3:08am » |
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on Aug 3rd, 2005, 2:41am, Arimanator wrote:| Please 99, first of all there was nothing heated up in my answer to you,. It was a civil and ordinary response and an effort to get my opinion across nothing more. |
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Sorry, I didn't mean in the angry way, I meant in the excited way... the stream of words just seemed a little excessive for the size of the topic.
Quote:| in my opinion a Hall of fame is not only and even more so not mainly about transmitting information, it's about awarding people who did something out of the ordinary. |
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Sure, and under my scheme the fastest immobilisation without loss will certainly be listed and receive glory. My scheme is actually often awarding one more type of achievement than yours is. Namely Belbo-style rabbit punching. Perhaps that cannot be done as quickly as immobilisation can be, but that does not mean that doing it fast is not an achievement worth noting. If it can be noted using the same number of lines, then the conclusion is very obvious.
Quote:although please !!! give people some credit to deduce by themselves that if the overall is different from the immobilization then it must be that it is by goal.
So what it's all about is not really about information since that information is there for the getting anyway |
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Ahh... sometimes the information is there for the getting under your scheme, but sometimes it is not. As an example, please can you tell me what the No-Pieces-Lost-Goal record is based on these two lines:
Win by immobilization in fewest moves with no pieces lost by either side: *Arimanator in 27
Win in fewest moves with no pieces lost by either side: * Arimanator in 27
Well?? Clearly we have sometimes lost highly glorious information about whoever the best rabbit-puncher was.
My scheme never loses this information, and the category it leaves out can always be directly inferred.
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| « Last Edit: Aug 3rd, 2005, 3:25am by 99of9 » |
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99of9
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Re: Bot-bashing Hall of Fame
« Reply #76 on: Aug 3rd, 2005, 3:18am » |
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on Aug 3rd, 2005, 3:08am, Arimanator wrote:| I don't see how what you added contradicts a iota of what I said before, these bots are NOT PX bots so the question of mingling them with the PX is as objectionable as the for the blitz. |
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I agree with you. I have never suggested "mingling" the rabbit-pulling challenge into the main list. It was a special challenge, and I agree with Omar that it should be on a monthly challenge list. I was merely correcting your misunderstanding that it was tightly-focussed on Bomb_Blitz.
Quote:| And I don't see the point in giving performances against bots that are not currently on line since people can't verify by themselves how difficult it is to beat them, for all they know it could be copies of shallowblue. |
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Fair point, but I think there is a place for monthly challenges. Think of them as somewhat akin to Player of the Month. We have no idea how good their competition was, but we do know that they were the best at the time.
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| « Last Edit: Aug 3rd, 2005, 3:19am by 99of9 » |
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PMertens
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Re: Bot-bashing Hall of Fame
« Reply #77 on: Aug 3rd, 2005, 3:29am » |
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I believe you both made your point.
How about gathering the opinion from other players and deciding by vote - or by omar 
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99of9
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Re: Bot-bashing Hall of Fame
« Reply #78 on: Aug 3rd, 2005, 3:39am » |
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on Aug 3rd, 2005, 3:23am, Arimanator wrote:| I believe that for the goal "no pieces" to be worth citing it should be faster than the immobilization one. |
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I agree that no-pieces-goal seems EASIER than no-pieces-immobilisation, but that does not necessarily mean that it should be FASTER. In fact the one data point we have so far would suggest the contrary . Given that you said the board is about recognising achievements, I find this opinion of yours that a fast rabbit punch is no achievement of note quite strange.
Quote:| Would you for the sake of "information" also argue that the "missing pieces immobilization" should also appear if it is done in more moves than the "no pieces" one |
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No, stylistically one is a superset of the other. If I can produce a winning game without losing a piece, then I can always win with losing a piece in at most one move longer (and I can present an algorithm to show how to map from one to another... it's called one move suicide  ).
In the (no-loss) case of immobilisation vs goal, it it not even clear which should be faster against a good bot. Stylistically they are diammetrically opposed (they even use different "superstrategies"). Do you really think goal is a superset of immobilisation?? Surely not.
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| « Last Edit: Aug 3rd, 2005, 3:41am by 99of9 » |
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99of9
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Gnobby's creator (player #314)
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Re: Bot-bashing Hall of Fame
« Reply #79 on: Aug 3rd, 2005, 3:43am » |
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on Aug 3rd, 2005, 3:29am, PMertens wrote:| I believe you both made your point. |
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Yes, at this point I believe Arimanator now understands my original post.
Quote:| How about gathering the opinion from other players and deciding by vote - or by omar |
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Agreed.
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PMertens
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Re: Bot-bashing Hall of Fame
« Reply #80 on: Aug 3rd, 2005, 3:58pm » |
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There are several different ways to win:
* rabbit reaches goal
* opponent is immobilized
(* opponent runs out of time )
(* opponent repeats position )
(* opponent resigns )
Currently we consider victory by goal (which is immobilization AND rabbit) and immobilization.
There are several different "handicaps":
* material
* no piece lost
* no piece crosses line before all enemy pieces except the phant are dead
* all rabbits on second row
* reduced number of steps per move
* whatever else can be considered as a handicap ...
Currently we consider material and no piece list handicap on the botbashing page.
The question is wether or not to add the other handicaps as well.
There are Px and system dependent bots.
I believe they stay as clearly seperated as they are now.
(or the system dependent bots could be completely removed since their records are unfair anyway)
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| « Last Edit: Aug 5th, 2005, 1:19pm by PMertens » |
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99of9
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Re: Bot-bashing Hall of Fame
« Reply #81 on: Aug 3rd, 2005, 6:42pm » |
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on Aug 3rd, 2005, 3:58am, Arimanator wrote:I'll agree to 2 lines
"Goal no pieces" and "Freeze no pieces"
But that means that the whole Hall should be modified in accordance otherwise people new to this game won't know if a win is "by goal" or "by immobilization" since it's never said, I'll let you do the ground work for that otherwise modifing it only in Bomb P2 is misleading to say the least.
Is that ok with you 99?
Or would you like some tea? |
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Yes, of course I am happy to make the changes (presuming there are no objections from others?) And yes, you are right that I needed to go and make some tea (then my wife needed the computer).
I will try to get around to replying to all the stuff about the "special challenges" list soon.
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Arimanator
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Re: Bot-bashing Hall of Fame
« Reply #82 on: Aug 22nd, 2005, 1:58am » |
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I've added Bomb2005CC on the list ( abiding by Omar's wishes in one of his game comments, by the way).
Given that it is the strongest variable performance bot, I don't see why it should be excluded from the hall.
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| « Last Edit: Aug 22nd, 2005, 2:01am by Arimanator » |
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omar
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Re: Bot-bashing Hall of Fame
« Reply #83 on: Aug 22nd, 2005, 9:50pm » |
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I think at least the "fewest move win" catagory should be added on the bot bashing page for all of the 2005CC bots. The games can be found using the bot's game record.
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Arimanator
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Re: Bot-bashing Hall of Fame
« Reply #84 on: Aug 24th, 2005, 8:24am » |
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on Aug 22nd, 2005, 9:50pm, omar wrote:I think at least the "fewest move win" catagory should be added on the bot bashing page for all of the 2005CC bots. The games can be found using the bot's game record.
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As a gesture of good citizenship I've done just that.
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omar
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Re: Bot-bashing Hall of Fame
« Reply #85 on: Aug 27th, 2005, 11:11am » |
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on Aug 24th, 2005, 8:24am, Arimanator wrote:
As a gesture of good citizenship I've done just that.
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Thanks Pat, I appreciate it.
Also it would be nice if we preserve the list of old records on a seperate page, but linked near the current record. So before replacing the current record with a new one, the current one should be copied over to the old records list. This would provide a nice historical history of the record.
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omar
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Re: Bot-bashing Hall of Fame
« Reply #86 on: Aug 27th, 2005, 3:08pm » |
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on Aug 2nd, 2005, 9:58pm, omar wrote:
Also we probably should make a Wiki page for describing and displaying the various superstratagies.
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I've started doing this. The page is called BotSlayer.
http://arimaa.com/arimaa/twiki/bin/view/Arimaa/BotSlayer
If I missed some strategies, please let me know. Or just go ahead and add them.
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Fritzlein
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Re: Bot-bashing Hall of Fame
« Reply #87 on: Aug 27th, 2005, 6:12pm » |
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I think you missed EH attack followed by smothering the hostage-holding elephant. It's conceptually rather different than collecting little pieces for material advantage, although it starts the same way.
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Arimanator
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Re: Bot-bashing Hall of Fame
« Reply #88 on: Aug 29th, 2005, 3:46am » |
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on Aug 27th, 2005, 11:11am, omar wrote:
...Also it would be nice if we preserve the list of old records on a seperate page, but linked near the current record. So before replacing the current record with a new one, the current one should be copied over to the old records list. This would provide a nice historical history of the record.
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I've started that up with Bomb P2, with my own records (no one around here supected me to be a saint,did one?), doing that for everyone seems like a job for Hercules although in the long run I intend to do some of it, not ALL of it tho . If somebody wants to chip in if only for their own records, be my guest.
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Arimanator
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Re: Bot-bashing Hall of Fame
« Reply #89 on: Aug 29th, 2005, 5:26am » |
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About the botslayers I believe Belbo's historical game against Bomb would deserve to be listed in the category of deliberate win by smother which I think, as noted by 99, is a strategy of its own very different from goal seeking.
A footnote about the no piece taken subcategory would seem also to be deserving of existence.*
*It would appear that I am in a bombastic mood today.
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| « Last Edit: Aug 29th, 2005, 5:27am by Arimanator » |
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