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Topic: Re: About the P3 version of Bomb (Read 6560 times) |
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PMertens
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Arimaa player #692
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Re: About the P3 version of Bomb
« on: Jul 2nd, 2005, 12:15pm » |
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I agree.
There is no need for setting a timelimit on the bot side since it is fixed in search depth and humans need to sleep once in a while.
I would propose rather generous settings like 1d/10d since this experiment might take time and sometimes you cant play for even a week.
Maybe you can limit the load this bot can put on the server if you dont want it to run full power all day.
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omar
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Re: About the P3 version of Bomb
« Reply #1 on: Jul 3rd, 2005, 10:15am » |
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I was in the middle of setting it up, but then got inturrupted, so that timecontrol is not the final one. I have no idea about how long it will take for P3 to complete the move without being rushed by time. So I need to experiment with it a bit and then I'll set the timecontrol either to make it interactive or postal.
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PMertens
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Re: About the P3 version of Bomb
« Reply #2 on: Jul 6th, 2005, 12:12am » |
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uh ... there is a tiny little problem 
If only one session of P3 is possible then someone will block the bot for everybody else for days/weeks.
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omar
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Re: About the P3 version of Bomb
« Reply #3 on: Jul 6th, 2005, 6:47pm » |
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I'll have to setup P3 to play postal games and rotate through multiple games.
Im finding that it takes about 30 minutes to make a move. P2 used to take only about 15 seconds per move. So it got slower by a factor of 120. If P4 is slower than P3 by a even a factor of 100 it will take around 3000 minutes to make a move; or about 50 hours; or a little over two days. Still possible to play it as a postal game; although it will only play a few games per year. P5 will have to wait till the hardware gets 100 times faster.
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PMertens
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Arimaa player #692
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Re: About the P3 version of Bomb
« Reply #4 on: Jul 6th, 2005, 11:37pm » |
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true, it would be a very slow experiment but I think it might be worth it (if you can spare the load on your server  )
It would tell us wether or not we have to fear deeper search bots anytime soon or if we should concentrate on evaluation only.
If you can dominate a P4 Bomb the same boring way you can a P2 then the answer is clear to me.
If P4 rips me to pieces ... well then ... its only a question of time ...
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99of9
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Re: About the P3 version of Bomb
« Reply #5 on: Jul 7th, 2005, 12:01am » |
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I think we know the answer to that... remember bomb played 10 games at 3 hours each move in the postal. That means it was between P3 and P4 on average... and lost a fair few.
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PMertens
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Re: About the P3 version of Bomb
« Reply #6 on: Jul 7th, 2005, 12:57am » |
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Thats not exactly correct.
P2 might use an AVERAGE of 15s but in complex situations its far more.
In my last game it had an Average of 24s and played several moves at far over a minute.
Its extremely complexity dependant.
Same with P3
I have seen a 6h move !
So actually the Postal-Tournament-Version was sometimes between P3 and P4 (in simple situations) and sometimes between P2 and P3 (in complex situations)
Since I consider the complex situations more important its not even P3.
Added to that I think a 12ply is MUCH stronger than an 11ply - while I believe a 13ply to be only a little stronger than a 12 ply.
And while bomb lost a few its even more surprising that it won any
At it current level of ply a P2 should not be able to win (unless the human is toying around like I tend to do)
Conclusion:
I dont think we know the answer yet
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99of9
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Re: About the P3 version of Bomb
« Reply #7 on: Jul 7th, 2005, 4:51am » |
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on Jul 7th, 2005, 12:57am, PMertens wrote:
P2 might use an AVERAGE of 15s but in complex situations its far more.
In my last game it had an Average of 24s and played several moves at far over a minute.
Its extremely complexity dependant. |
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I think that's because for bomb P2 is not strictly 8 steps. Bomb has quite a lot of search extensions etc. For gnobby P2 = exactly 8 steps, always. Even in complex situations this never takes over 15s.
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RonWeasley
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Re: About the P3 version of Bomb
« Reply #8 on: Jul 7th, 2005, 7:53am » |
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Quote:| Omar, I believe that thanks to him any record bashing against Bomb is rendered moot by the fact that if you possess the home version you can play back and forth and therefore sooner or later you will find the series of moves that will win no matter how mediocre your personal talents. |
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The current handicap records against the Bomb variants have all been about discovering and applying a pattern that exploits a weakness in Bomb. Once the best pattern has been discovered, the record goes to the one who can apply the pattern most effeciently. And get some luck from the random effects in Bomb.
Training on the pattern, on- or off-line, is something all the bot bashers are doing. I don't see the logic in objecting to a specific method of training. Am I missing something?
If logic is not his motivation, another possibility is that Arimanator enjoys PMertens bashing just as much as bot bashing. Or maybe he just likes "trash talk" and the attention it generates like we see in many professional sports. The optimistic view is that this is more evidence of arimaa becoming a mainstream passtime.
Anyway, I'm giving Arimanator some attention here and I think that should make him happy.
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99of9
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Re: About the P3 version of Bomb
« Reply #9 on: Jul 7th, 2005, 10:43am » |
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on Jul 7th, 2005, 10:18am, Arimanator wrote:
Good question. With all due respect my dear RON I believe you are missing something.
Once you can play a bot by making him give a response to any position you want as the home version permits, it's no longer a question of finding a pattern but it's more like craking a code when you can check each number one after the other. even if the code contains dozens of numbers you intuitively guess that the number of hit and miss will be a lot fewer than it should be. And that it no longer matters whether you can play or not when you can check moves that makes no sense at all but to whom for some reason the bot gives a stupid answer that'll make him lose.
It makes Arimaa the stupidest of games where you check each possibiltity after each other until you stumble on the right one.
DO YOU GET MY POINT THIS TIME?
because I can't make it any clearer, sorry. |
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And your specific allegation is that this technique was what allowed PMertens to win the bomb_BLITZ handicap record? If you think about it you'll realise that that is not as straightforward as you describe it for a system-dependent bot.
Even if it was, I, like Ron, believe that all is fair game. If it's so easy to improve the record, go right ahead (it only costs $20 to prove your case!). I thought you were going to do this by Sunday anyway?
By the way - there are plenty of other records out there and I'm still looking for volunteers to help me fill them.
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PMertens
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Re: About the P3 version of Bomb
« Reply #10 on: Jul 7th, 2005, 11:02am » |
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since its meant as a personal attack I would l like to mention the fact that I have no offline version of bomb.
Anyway ... I believe this to be the wrong topic for that discussion.
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| « Last Edit: Jul 7th, 2005, 11:57am by PMertens » |
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RonWeasley
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Re: About the P3 version of Bomb
« Reply #11 on: Jul 7th, 2005, 11:34am » |
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Quote:| Once you can play a bot by making him give a response to any position you want as the home version permits, it's no longer a question of finding a pattern but it's more like craking a code when you can check each number one after the other. even if the code contains dozens of numbers you intuitively guess that the number of hit and miss will be a lot fewer than it should be. And that it no longer matters whether you can play or not when you can check moves that makes no sense at all but to whom for some reason the bot gives a stupid answer that'll make him lose. |
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While it's still not clear, Arimanator may be making the distinction between pattern and sequence. With no randomization, it is possible to determine a sequence of moves, perhaps by trial and error, that wins. It's possible to do this without any understanding of the game. However, even if Bomb's randomization is restricted to the initial setup, and I don't think it is, it's unlikely a person without an understanding of the game could find a successful sequence in only a few weeks. Even a good GA algorithm could take much longer due the number of combinations. This was one of Omar's intentions and it appears to be holding up. So I don't think any of the successful bot bashers could possibly be using that method.
A subtler difference is whether a bot basher understands why the pattern works. That's an interesting topic, especially for bot developers who can then address the specific weaknesses. To me, that is the greatest benefit of bot bashing. Still, practicing off-line or on-line isn't relevant.
Quote:DO YOU GET MY POINT THIS TIME?
because I can't make it any clearer, sorry. |
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Since we still disagree, I guess not. Sending a howler was a good try, though!
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omar
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Arimaa player #2
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Re: About the P3 version of Bomb
« Reply #12 on: Jul 9th, 2005, 6:59am » |
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I've setup Bomb2005P3 so that it rotates through multiple postal games. Haven't tested it much though. Give it a try. When you start the game it might take a minute or so to show up and make it's move; so don't worry if it looks like it's not there.
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PMertens
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Re: About the P3 version of Bomb
« Reply #13 on: Jul 9th, 2005, 2:22pm » |
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hmmmm - that move is over 2 days already.
What was the longest move in your game, Omar ?
Any problem with the rotating ?
... ok, seems to work now ... thanks Omar 
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| « Last Edit: Jul 11th, 2005, 4:23pm by PMertens » |
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PMertens
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Arimaa player #692
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Re: About the P3 version of Bomb
« Reply #14 on: Jul 12th, 2005, 1:51am » |
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What surprises me most is that P3 seems not to be stronger than P2.
I managed to make some mistakes in the opening but bomb did not even try to take advantage (Game 23157 most impressive move 16b, but also those lovely Null-moves at 17 and 19)
I also got the impression that there are still lots of moves to prune (like using 3 steps to do st that can be undone in one ...) that should speed up things considerably.
Would it be possible to set up P2 vs P3 ?
In theorie P3 should clearly win.
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| « Last Edit: Jul 12th, 2005, 1:55am by PMertens » |
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