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Topic: Move 4 (Read 6019 times) |
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NIC1138
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Fritzlein has played, e->d3 and camel south.
I propose move E south, and pull the western rabbit, just to start the arguing. 
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Adanac
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Re: Move 4
« Reply #1 on: Jan 10th, 2009, 7:27pm » |
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on Jan 10th, 2009, 3:45pm, NIC1138 wrote:Fritzlein has played, e->d3 and camel south.
I propose move E south, and pull the western rabbit, just to start the arguing. |
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Keep in mind that he's threatening both of our cats though. After pulling the rabbit, we can use the 4th step to move either a rabbit or cat to e2. I'd much prefer the cat on e2 for one very obvious reason
However, I think we should delay the rabbit pull for one move while we improve our defences. Something like
C->b3, M->c2, C->e2. I'm really interested to hear some better proposals as I'm not convinced my suggestion is very strong at all.
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arimaa_master
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Re: Move 4
« Reply #2 on: Jan 11th, 2009, 5:23am » |
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Very interesting position. However I dunno what to play.
Maybe 4g Cf2w Ed5w Ha5n Ra2e (preventing EH attack and preparing our possible EH attack or rabbit pull).
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jdb
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Re: Move 4
« Reply #3 on: Jan 11th, 2009, 5:47am » |
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I am surprised silver advanced his camel.
4g E->g5 C->e2
If silver tries h->b3 the tactics work out in gold's favour.
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warren
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Re: Move 4
« Reply #4 on: Jan 12th, 2009, 7:21am » |
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on Jan 11th, 2009, 5:47am, jdb wrote:I am surprised silver advanced his camel.
4g E->g5 C->e2
If silver tries h->b3 the tactics work out in gold's favour. |
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After 4s h->b3 c->g7 it seems to me that we get a camel hostage but he gets an eh attack and a cat. That does not seem like a good trade for us. Can you post the continuation you say works out in our favor?
Update: I currently like Adanac's 4g C->b3, M->c2, C->e2 best. Long-term we want our camel in the west against his pair of horses and our elephant in the east against his camel. After that move the only weakness I see in our position is our excessively advanced cat, but we'll be able to fix that before he gets a chance to exploit it I think.
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| « Last Edit: Jan 12th, 2009, 7:29am by warren » |
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UruramTururam
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Re: Move 4
« Reply #5 on: Jan 12th, 2009, 9:57am » |
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on Jan 11th, 2009, 5:47am, jdb wrote:I am surprised silver advanced his camel.
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He may consider EM attack...
I like the Arimaa_master's proposal, but what will we do after a possible camel charge?
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chessandgo
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Re: Move 4
« Reply #6 on: Jan 12th, 2009, 10:10am » |
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Funny I hadn't noticed it before, but our Dg1 became severely misplaced when Karl put his camel on g7 on move 1, as our g-file Horse is likely not going anywhere.
Seems like the game got very sharp already. I understand better Adanac's prediction of m to g3 h to b3 now  I think this is the reason why Fritzl played this camel step, jdb. Our E might have hard time preventing h to b3 if we go after his camel.
Ra2e does not seem to be a candidate step, as we want our camel on western side, and currently its path would be through c2, meaning we might want to use the b2 square for our Cc2 very soon.
Ideally (phantasmatically ^^) we would like to make sure that our camel can hold the western wing without the help of the phant to neutralize the threats of his mg6 advancing towards g3 (thanks to our free phant). We would then be able to decide between going after his camel with our phant or going after an E+H attack around c6 (H to a6, E to c5, then H to b6 in one move with a hb6 pull with the phant), or pulling the ra7 with our a-file Horse. For instance, if you could magically jump with our M to b3, we'd be in perfect shape.
Cf2w alone is interesting, something I'd never play, as I hate not controlling a hometrap, but maybe it's the right way to deal with the position.
jdb, I don't get either how E to g5 C to e2 could work. after h to b3, if we flip the camel then silver captures a Cat and threatens to capture our M.
There are a lot of possibilities to defend our two hometraps. For the f3 trap, we can simply Hg2n, obliviously to an e1 rabbitpull. We can simply Cf2w, but also Cf2w Rf1n, or even Cf2w Hg2w (putting a big piece next to the trap, which might prove bad tactically should silver go for h to b3/m to g3, but it has the advantage of getting our H further away from the camel, and additionnally we still have a dog to cover g3 next, finally it allows the Dg1 to hope coming into play soon. On the other hand having a Horse on g-file ensure that silver's camel will not cross to the western side, not sure whether this is relevant).
For the b3 square a Cf2w step also takes care of the 1-move capture threat, and we also have to consider the h to b3 threat. Ed5w would prevent it at least for this move, and there is also a cute step: Ra2n. The idea being that h to b3 is met by Cc2ww Md2ww. This advanced rabbit could turn into a strength if we go for an attacking game, not a rabbitpulling one. As it stands h to b2 would be met by E to c4 Cc2n Md2w.
As for the whole move, at first sight 4w Cf2w Hg2w Ha5n Ed5w seems cute, threatening 5w Ec5w Eb5e hb6s Ha6e. Many many moves are possible, any combination protecting both traps and including either an Ed5w or an Ra2n or Cc2wn-Md2w step(s), including Re1n or Hg2n actually ... we're going to have a zillion moves to decide between I fear
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Adanac
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Re: Move 4
« Reply #7 on: Jan 12th, 2009, 11:34am » |
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on Jan 12th, 2009, 10:10am, chessandgo wrote:| jdb, I don't get either how E to g5 C to e2 could work. after h to b3, if we flip the camel then silver captures a Cat and threatens to capture our M. |
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At first I didn't like this move, but things could get really exciting if we play jdb's move:
4g E to g5 (jdb's suggestion)
4s Fritzlein attacks the southwest trap with h->b3
5g We flip the camel to g4
5s The c2 cat is captured, then e->e3 to protect camel.
6g Our camel slides to b2 and we threaten 2 pieces in our home traps, plus our horse will soon takeover the northwest trap - I like it!
Of course, Fritzlein will see this and play a different 4s - possibly sliding his camel west towards our horse. Not good. It's an interesting line though.
I'm at work (no board here, unfortunately  ), but I'm interested to read the rest of C&G's long analysis tonight.
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Adanac
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Re: Move 4
« Reply #8 on: Jan 12th, 2009, 8:22pm » |
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on Jan 12th, 2009, 10:10am, chessandgo wrote:| As for the whole move, at first sight 4w Cf2w Hg2w Ha5n Ed5w seems cute, threatening 5w Ec5w Eb5e hb6s Ha6e. Many many moves are possible, any combination protecting both traps and including either an Ed5w or an Ra2n or Cc2wn-Md2w step(s), including Re1n or Hg2n actually ... we're going to have a zillion moves to decide between I fear |
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After 4g Cf2w Hg2w Ha5n Ed5w Fritz might play 4s hd7s hd6w hb6s hc6w which would temporarily block our attacking plan while potentially advancing another silver attacker to the southwest. But I think we should be okay in the southwest thanks to our camel. Even if we just place our cat on b3 and camel on c2 on move 5, that should be enough to stop Fritzlein's attack.
Yes there will be a lot of options to vote on this turn  We should probably do some long-term planning to make our short-term tactical decisions easier. Here's my train of thought:
1. Are we still going to pull a rabbit with the a5 horse, or give up that idea?
2. Should we try to attack the c6 trap?
3. How should we defend the f3 trap -- with a horse on f2 and dog on g3 or vice versa...or some other defence?
4. If we move the cat to b3 and camel to c2, is that enough to hold against an E+H attack by silver?
5. What should we do with our elephant? Harass the camel or stay in the west?
6. Other ideas...
My opinions
1. This game could get very complicated soon and rabbit-pulling might turn out to be a waste of time, even counter-productive.
2. I still like the idea of an E+H attack at the c6 trap. It would certainly justify our opening moves!
3. I'd prefer to have the horse on g3, dog on f2 -- but the dog will be stuck on g1 for the immediate future in my proposed move below. If Fritzlein re-arranges his pieces and gets a horse on the east side several moves down the road, we will be happy that we put our stronger piece on the g3 square. The negative is that our horse becomes a tempting target for that silver camel 
4. A cat on b3 and camel on c2 seems to be a sufficient defence for now. Fritz would need more than 2 pieces to attack the c3 trap and that's not a possibility right now. If the silver horse pushes the cat down to b2 then we would play Ra2n Cb2w Mc2w and gain the upper hand.
5. I think our elephant should try to eventually get to d6, blocking the silver camel away from the west side and working towards an E+H attack. It might have to drag the silver horse away from b6 first, before later moving to d6. My worry is that by the time we drag the defending horse away from b6, Fritz will be able to get his camel into the west to thwart our attack.
6. 
My proposed move is 4g Cc2w Cb2n Md2w Hg2n
I liked jdb's proposal (E->g5, C->e2) but my worry is that the silver camel will slide over to d6 if we place our elephant on g5. Then our position looks kind of scattered with pieces all over the place. It works better if Fritz ignores the camel and charges the horse to b3 but I doubt he would do that 
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chessandgo
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Re: Move 4
« Reply #9 on: Jan 13th, 2009, 4:55am » |
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on Jan 12th, 2009, 11:34am, Adanac wrote:
At first I didn't like this move, but things could get really exciting if we play jdb's move:
4g E to g5 (jdb's suggestion)
4s Fritzlein attacks the southwest trap with h->b3
5g We flip the camel to g4
5s The c2 cat is captured, then e->e3 to protect camel.
6g Our camel slides to b2 and we threaten 2 pieces in our home traps, plus our horse will soon takeover the northwest trap - I like it!
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There is no need for silver to cover f3 in your 5s as gold's M is threatened. 5s hb3e hc3n Cc2n Cc3x x would be enough for silver already unless I'm misremembering the position.
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chessandgo
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Re: Move 4
« Reply #10 on: Jan 13th, 2009, 5:06am » |
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on Jan 12th, 2009, 8:22pm, Adanac wrote:
After 4g Cf2w Hg2w Ha5n Ed5w Fritz might play 4s hd7s hd6w hb6s hc6w which would temporarily block our attacking plan while potentially advancing another silver attacker to the southwest. But I think we should be okay in the southwest thanks to our camel. Even if we just place our cat on b3 and camel on c2 on move 5, that should be enough to stop Fritzlein's attack.
Yes there will be a lot of options to vote on this turn We should probably do some long-term planning to make our short-term tactical decisions easier. Here's my train of thought:
1. Are we still going to pull a rabbit with the a5 horse, or give up that idea?
2. Should we try to attack the c6 trap?
3. How should we defend the f3 trap -- with a horse on f2 and dog on g3 or vice versa...or some other defence?
4. If we move the cat to b3 and camel to c2, is that enough to hold against an E+H attack by silver?
5. What should we do with our elephant? Harass the camel or stay in the west?
6. Other ideas...
My opinions
1. This game could get very complicated soon and rabbit-pulling might turn out to be a waste of time, even counter-productive.
2. I still like the idea of an E+H attack at the c6 trap. It would certainly justify our opening moves!
3. I'd prefer to have the horse on g3, dog on f2 -- but the dog will be stuck on g1 for the immediate future in my proposed move below. If Fritzlein re-arranges his pieces and gets a horse on the east side several moves down the road, we will be happy that we put our stronger piece on the g3 square. The negative is that our horse becomes a tempting target for that silver camel
4. A cat on b3 and camel on c2 seems to be a sufficient defence for now. Fritz would need more than 2 pieces to attack the c3 trap and that's not a possibility right now. If the silver horse pushes the cat down to b2 then we would play Ra2n Cb2w Mc2w and gain the upper hand.
5. I think our elephant should try to eventually get to d6, blocking the silver camel away from the west side and working towards an E+H attack. It might have to drag the silver horse away from b6 first, before later moving to d6. My worry is that by the time we drag the defending horse away from b6, Fritz will be able to get his camel into the west to thwart our attack.
6.
My proposed move is 4g Cc2w Cb2n Md2w Hg2n
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After 4g Cf2w Hg2w Ha5n Ed5w 4s hd7s hd6w hb6s hc6w bringing our camel to b3 in the next two moves could be deadly, unless silver manages to create a big fight with his camel on eastern side, but even that might not be enough.
I like your answers to 1. and 2. For 3. we might also want to postpone deciding it by playing a mere Cf2w step, like 4g Cf2w Ha6n Ec5w Ra2n. I agree with your 4., and your 4g Cc2w Cb2n Md2w Hg2n proposal indeed looks interesting. Don't you mind our Re1 being pulled then? For 4., actually as long as our phant is available for c3 defense it should be enough. For 5. I'd say that the best case would be if our phant could remain centralized to neutralize charges on both sides from silver. The worry that silver should cross over with his camel top western side does not seem a frightening prospect for the moment, it would mean he needs to play 3 horse steps to get an hg6 plus a large number of camel steps to get within reach of the western side, meaning he'd be the one who'd lose the more time with respect to his opening setup.
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arimaa_master
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Re: Move 4
« Reply #11 on: Jan 13th, 2009, 6:08am » |
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on Jan 11th, 2009, 5:47am, jdb wrote:I am surprised silver advanced his camel.
4g E->g5 C->e2
If silver tries h->b3 the tactics work out in gold's favour. |
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I think that this move is met by c->g7 m->d6. And we are left with no good position.
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arimaa_master
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Re: Move 4
« Reply #12 on: Jan 13th, 2009, 6:12am » |
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on Jan 12th, 2009, 9:57am, UruramTururam wrote:
He may consider EM attack...
I like the Arimaa_master's proposal, but what will we do after a possible camel charge? |
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After possible camel charge. We will move E->f4 and after that it is quite sharp.
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warren
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Re: Move 4
« Reply #13 on: Jan 13th, 2009, 9:16am » |
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Here's the beginnings of a game tree. To save time I will not be including what appear to be obvious blunders in this tree. Please let me know if I've missed an important move.
4g Ha5ns ra7s Cf2w (Adanac)
4g C->b3, M->c2, C->e2 (Adanac)
4g Cf2w Ed5w Ha5n Ra2e (AM)
4g Cf2w Ha6n Ec5w Ra2n (CG)
4w Cf2w Hg2w Ha5n Ed5w (CG)
4s hd7s hd6w hb6s hc6w (Adanac)
4g Cc2w Cb2n Md2w Hg2n (Adanac)
4g E->g5 C->e2 (jdb)
4s c->g7 m->d6 (AM)
4s h->b3 (adanac)
5g We flip the camel to g4 (adanac)
5s hb3e hc3n Cc2n Cc3x ?? (CG)
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| « Last Edit: Jan 13th, 2009, 9:28am by warren » |
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warren
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Re: Move 4
« Reply #14 on: Jan 13th, 2009, 9:46am » |
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on Jan 12th, 2009, 10:10am, chessandgo wrote:
As for the whole move, at first sight 4w Cf2w Hg2w Ha5n Ed5w seems cute, threatening 5w Ec5w Eb5e hb6s Ha6e. |
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How do we deal with
4w Cf2w Hg2w Ha5n Ed5w
4b e->b5
? More generally don't we need to worry about him taking our horse hostage and framing it using his two-horse horse harassment trick?
Update: actually this seems to be more of a threat as a reply to 4w moves that do no include Ha5n since the rabbit pull delays him by putting a rabbit in his way.
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| « Last Edit: Jan 13th, 2009, 9:58am by warren » |
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