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Topic: 2008 Computer Champioship (Read 3007 times) |
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omar
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Arimaa player #2
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2008 Computer Champioship
« on: Mar 2nd, 2008, 1:09am » |
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I think I may have to delay the start of the Computer Championship a bit. When I was checking to see if the bots were ready I found that bot_Zombie had not been uploaded at all. Evan had indicated he wanted to enter bot_Zombie and had paid the registration fee. I'm afraid that maybe he did not get my email with the account info to upload his bot. I've been trying to contact him, but from the lastest posting in his blog I think he is off sking this weekend. Karl happened to have a copy of Zombie and we are going to try and upload that.
I don't mind delaying the start of the games a bit. I would much rather have all the bots that entered be able to play.
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Janzert
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Re: 2008 Computer Champioship
« Reply #1 on: Mar 2nd, 2008, 6:23am » |
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Thanks for the note Omar. I hope you're able to make contact.
Janzert
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IdahoEv
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Re: 2008 Computer Champioship
« Reply #2 on: Mar 2nd, 2008, 11:33am » |
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Omar contacted me and I uploaded Zombie right away. I haven't touched the code in a long time so I hope I have it configured right, but it seems to be playing okay.
I was simply overloaded with travel (I'm posting this from a remote cabin in the mountains of Idaho) and it slipped my mind. But everything is up now, so game on!
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omar
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Re: 2008 Computer Champioship
« Reply #3 on: Mar 2nd, 2008, 6:26pm » |
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Thanks Evan, I checked out Zombie and it seems to be running fine.
I should have been able to start the bot tournament today, but there are a couple of other things which are causing delays. Both of which are my fault.
First, I needed to give the names of the 3 players that will be defending the Arimaa challenge to the WCC TD before the start of the tournament. I was a little late in contacting players to see if they would be interested. At present I have two confirmations and waiting to hear back from the third player.
Second I forgot to order the second server until yesterday. The hosting company has not set it up yet and it will take me about a day after it is setup to get it configured and ready for the tournament.
I apologize to the bot developers and spectators for the delay. However, I think I should still be able to get the tournament finished by the March 15th date as planned.
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arimaa_master
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Arimaa player #2010
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Re: 2008 Computer Champioship
« Reply #4 on: Mar 3rd, 2008, 5:28am » |
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on Mar 2nd, 2008, 6:26pm, omar wrote:Thanks Evan, I checked out Zombie and it seems to be running fine.
I should have been able to start the bot tournament today, but there are a couple of other things which are causing delays. Both of which are my fault.
First, I needed to give the names of the 3 players that will be defending the Arimaa challenge to the WCC TD before the start of the tournament. I was a little late in contacting players to see if they would be interested. At present I have two confirmations and waiting to hear back from the third player.
Second I forgot to order the second server until yesterday. The hosting company has not set it up yet and it will take me about a day after it is setup to get it configured and ready for the tournament.
I apologize to the bot developers and spectators for the delay. However, I think I should still be able to get the tournament finished by the March 15th date as planned.
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As for the spectators side: don´t worry about it too much. We should be happy that you found the time to let this tournament happen  .
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omar
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Re: 2008 Computer Champioship
« Reply #5 on: Mar 5th, 2008, 12:53am » |
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I am happy to announce that the second server was setup on Wednesday and I was able to get it configured and ready by the end of the day. Thus the games can begin tomorrow.
I found that David Fotland had not upload his bot (bot_bomb). He said he was really busy at work and did not get to work on it as much as he wanted to. I substituted Bomb2005CC in its place. Since David registered properly and is the developer of Bomb2005CC he will still receive any prizes earned by this bot.
Looking forward to an exciting tournament. Good luck to all the developers.
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| « Last Edit: Mar 5th, 2008, 12:55am by omar » |
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RonWeasley
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Harry's friend (Arimaa player #441)
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Re: 2008 Computer Champioship
« Reply #6 on: Mar 5th, 2008, 7:39am » |
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I think this is the first year Bomb is not the top seed. Challenge defenders beware.
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RonWeasley
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Re: 2008 Computer Champioship
« Reply #7 on: Mar 5th, 2008, 3:27pm » |
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Sorry about the jinx, Janzert. They never work when I want them to.
But as soon as I mention seeding, the top seed OpFor gets upset by the bottom seed sharp. Congratulations to bot_sharp!
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Fritzlein
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Re: 2008 Computer Champioship
« Reply #8 on: Mar 5th, 2008, 4:45pm » |
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Round 2 pairing appears to have the colors wrong. OpFor vs. Zombie should be Zombie vs. OpFor, since Opfor was Gold in the first round while Zombie was silver in the first round.
I recall from last year that there was a color-assignment bug in the pairing program. This has apparently not been resolved, which requires hand-verification of colors each round.
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lightvector
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Re: 2008 Computer Champioship
« Reply #9 on: Mar 5th, 2008, 4:47pm » |
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Hooray, my bot isn't completely useless! 
Anyways, I have to laugh at all the games played so far. All three games look absolutely alien compared to the human WC games. Particularly the way all the bots are launching into undefended capturing races against each other right at the beginning.
Do humans avoid these lines because the outcomes can be so widely variable? Or is it just more profitable usually to defend and try to take hostages and frames? It would be great if stronger players could comment on how unsound/sound these lines really are.
Anyways, it's really quite amusing to see the differences.
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| « Last Edit: Mar 5th, 2008, 5:14pm by lightvector » |
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omar
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Re: 2008 Computer Champioship
« Reply #10 on: Mar 5th, 2008, 7:06pm » |
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on Mar 5th, 2008, 4:45pm, Fritzlein wrote:Round 2 pairing appears to have the colors wrong. OpFor vs. Zombie should be Zombie vs. OpFor, since Opfor was Gold in the first round while Zombie was silver in the first round.
I recall from last year that there was a color-assignment bug in the pairing program. This has apparently not been resolved, which requires hand-verification of colors each round. |
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Thanks for noticing that. I've manually changed the color assignment for this game.
Although we had a couple of technical problems today the first round of the computer tournament is completed. Hopefully we won't have any more issues.
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| « Last Edit: Mar 5th, 2008, 7:11pm by omar » |
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RonWeasley
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Re: 2008 Computer Champioship
« Reply #11 on: Mar 5th, 2008, 8:38pm » |
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lightvector, muggles do occasionally play a capture race game.
If memory serves, I think jdb used to do this, with success, and then shoot a rabbit through the hole. I think such a game takes away an advantage a strong player may have since a player becomes strong by learning how to coordinate many pieces to steadily increase a sustainable advantage through multiple threats at different areas of the board. The capture race removes pieces and makes the goal race more chaotic, so the strong player takes a risk by playing that kind of game.
I would avoid a capture race in a fast game against a good bot because of its accurate goal calculations. And NEVER try it against a tactical wizard like chessandgo.
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Fritzlein
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Re: 2008 Computer Champioship
« Reply #12 on: Mar 5th, 2008, 10:19pm » |
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on Mar 5th, 2008, 4:47pm, lightvector wrote:| Hooray, my bot isn't completely useless! |
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Congratulations!
Quote:...the way all the bots are launching into undefended capturing races against each other right at the beginning.
Do humans avoid these lines because the outcomes can be so widely variable? Or is it just more profitable usually to defend and try to take hostages and frames? |
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I think the key factor in the rarity of races among strong players is that it takes two to tango. There is no race unless both players want to race. Defense is not always stronger than offense, but it is usually a viable option for either player. Whenever both players consent to a goal race, or even a capture race, the results for the loser are catastrophic, which means that the loser would not have even entered the race if he had had good judgment. If both of the players have good judgment, then you won't see either of them throw away the game by entering a losing race.
In the endgame there are more situations in which defense can become a losing proposition. You might not be able to stop all of the opposing threats, and therefore be compelled to generate threats of your own. That might be a time when someone with good judgment would enter an unfavorable race, because the race at least offers more hope than a doomed defense.
In the opening, however, there is a sort of equilibrium between offense and defense. The power of your attack depends on how many pieces you advance and how recklessly. If you are bound and determined to be the attacker rather than the defender, you can raise the stakes to the point that the other person has to break off what they were doing to defend, or else lose the race. But in order to make your attack the more powerful one, you have to stick your neck out with a camel advance or something else punishable by proper defense.
One could view the opening as an auction for attacking rights: whoever bids higher gets to be the attacker while the other player defends. If the attacker bid too high then the defender has the advantage, whereas if the defender gave up his attack at too low a bid, the attacker has the advantage and gets something for nothing. If the bid was just right, then neither the attacker nor the defender has the advantage, and the players have naturally gravitated to the equilibrium point between attack and defense.
Of course, the tactically superior player can win with an unsound cheeseball attack, even if the weaker player correctly chose to defend. By the same token the tactically superior player can punish even a sound attack with excellent defense. This frustrates beginners (e.g. "I lose when I attack with EH and lose when I defend against EH") and this obfuscates the true equilibrium point, but it sure keeps Arimaa interesting and fun!
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IdahoEv
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Re: 2008 Computer Champioship
« Reply #13 on: Mar 6th, 2008, 1:37am » |
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it's also worth noting that if you roughly model bots as material eval applied to a depth search (which is not far from correct), they have no fear or avoidance of a capture race whatsoever. A bot "feels" exactly the same way about a camel-for-camel trade as it does about an untouched board.
The point at which the trading of pieces deviates in favor of one side or the other is way outside the search horizon at the time the race is initiated. By then, both bots are committed to making the best of the situation as dictated by the board, and constructing a proper defense is out of the question because each side has one decimated trap.
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arimaa_master
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Re: 2008 Computer Champioship
« Reply #14 on: Mar 7th, 2008, 3:48am » |
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on Mar 6th, 2008, 1:37am, IdahoEv wrote:it's also worth noting that if you roughly model bots as material eval applied to a depth search (which is not far from correct), they have no fear or avoidance of a capture race whatsoever. A bot "feels" exactly the same way about a camel-for-camel trade as it does about an untouched board.
The point at which the trading of pieces deviates in favor of one side or the other is way outside the search horizon at the time the race is initiated. By then, both bots are committed to making the best of the situation as dictated by the board, and constructing a proper defense is out of the question because each side has one decimated trap.
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I have two notes for two guys
1) Omar: It would be nice to add "Event coverage" link to Computer Championship (like is already in World Championship)
2) Adanac (or Fritzlein): here http://katieandkarl.pbwiki.com/2008+Arimaa+Computer+Championship
is comment "Loc vs. Clueless" the same one like in "Bomb vs. Zombie"
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