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5HT
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helpgoal contest
« on: Jan 26th, 2014, 11:54am » |
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hello -- I proposed a contest in chat on 26 JAN to see who can find the longest "helpgoal." I don't know how many are interested in this besides myself and browni, but I'm going to post the rules here anyway.
Definitions -- submissions must include a constructed, legal (at least one rabbit per side, etc....) position, with gold to move. [EDIT: In this position, it must be possible for gold to win by goal, thanks c&g.] Gold and silver then both cooperate to find the fasted goal (not *win*) for gold in X half-turns (since gold can technically goal on silver's move). The submission with the largest X wins.
on X -- if gold moves first, then silver pushes a gold rabbit to goal on the next turn, then X is 2. this might not be the norm, but it will make comparisons easier. [EDIT: X must be finite, thanks kzb]
thanks to silvermitt for posing this intriguing question!
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| « Last Edit: Jan 27th, 2014, 10:13am by 5HT » |
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kzb52
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Re: helpgoal contest
« Reply #1 on: Jan 26th, 2014, 1:05pm » |
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Is there any limit on the number of submissions a player may make? In any event I think that for this position X = 5 (goal on 4g) although I am far from sure. Fun contest though!
1g Cf7 Ch2 De6 Rg3 Rh3 He4 Hf4 Eg4 Rh5 Df6 Mg2
1s cf2 ch7 de3 rg6 rh6 he5 hf5 eg5 rh4 df3 mg7
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5HT
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Re: helpgoal contest
« Reply #2 on: Jan 26th, 2014, 1:08pm » |
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one submission per person. and try not to discuss any potential positions. oh and, if you're worried about anyone seeing your idea, just post your submission near the end of the deadline.
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kzb52
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Re: helpgoal contest
« Reply #3 on: Jan 26th, 2014, 1:58pm » |
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Ok, I probably shouldn't have posted so hastily! I still can't improve upon the above so consider that my official submission. If I do better I'll share after the contest ends. Also, wouldn't a position like
1g Ra4 Rb4 Rc4 Rd4 Re4 Rf4 Rg4 Rh4
1s ra5 rb5 rc5 rd5 re5 rf5 rg5 rh5
Have X=infinity? This is certainly a 'legal' position 
Finally, I didn't realize that silver wins don't count. I think that's a little strange, and it's more interesting to come up with positions where neither player can win for the longest time, but that's just me.
[EDIT: modified position so that gold pieces are placed on 1g, and silver pieces on 1s, and not the reverse]
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| « Last Edit: Jan 26th, 2014, 1:59pm by kzb52 » |
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5HT
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Re: helpgoal contest
« Reply #4 on: Jan 26th, 2014, 4:20pm » |
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thanks supersamu, for offering to be the arbiter!
also, please don't post your solutions here, or in chat!
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Hippo
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Re: helpgoal contest
« Reply #7 on: Jan 28th, 2014, 9:40am » |
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The win by cat around f6 trap trick was close.
The sum of path lengths (to c3 trap) was increased just by 3 (increasing X by 6), but cat is active unraveler while rabbit only unfreezes the unraveler so cat neednot do the last steps one per two turns and it could act 2 squares from the trap to pull the rabbit to the trap (subtracting 4 from X). The win is caused by the forced rabbit sacrifice with gold passivity with the goaling. Gold could only put dog on c4 during the 2 his turns while silver pushes the rabbit to d4. Gold goals on 51.
The alternative not sacrifying the rabbit is to wait one more full turn (subtracting only 2 from X), but goaling with c2 rabbit accelerated by the cat again on 51.
Not using the cat around f6 trap trick:
Uses a3 piece as unraveler. In this case both players are able to cooperate and the horse reaches d7 quickly while Dog opens d2 and dog pushes d1 rabbit to d2. Where it is unfrozen by the c2 piece. The rabbit runs to d6 alone from which the horse flips it to goal on 50.
Lack of gold nonrabbits forces rabbit use on c2 or d1 not to unfreeze the c1 piece. With rabbit on c2 players coordinate to goal on X=49.
Rabbit on b1 does not allow combination of nonrabbit pieces such that both north east and south west cannot break unassisted.
So the last hope is Rh6 with cat on both c2 and d1, but even in this case silver horse pushes the rabbit to goal on X=50. (Another problem is the Rabbit would not freeze the silver one..., but symmetry allows re8, ch3 instead... no h3 is closer than a8 )
If the arimaa would be with mouse instead of one rabbit, the mouse on d1 (and b2) would win the contest. For rabbit unfreezers.
And what about this:
http://arimaa.com/arimaa/notconv/old/boardimg.php?orient=n&size=300& amp;imgtype=png&ranks=r4DhE/6Hm/7C/7r/D/h/MrCrrrrr/eHdRR1cc
It seems there is no piece to push the d1 rabbit north so the goal would be slower. Seems X=51 as well.
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| « Last Edit: Jan 28th, 2014, 2:09pm by Hippo » |
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5HT
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Re: helpgoal contest
« Reply #9 on: Jan 28th, 2014, 8:51pm » |
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also from harvestsnow:
1w Ca2 Mb1 Cb3 Rc2 Rd1 Re1 Df4 Hg3 Hg5 Rh2 Eh4 Dh6
1b da1 ra7 db2 cc1 rd2 re2 rf2 cf5 hg1 rg2 mg4 eh1 rh3 hh5 rh7
proposed X=65
[EDIT: fixed typo, thanks harvestsnow]
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| « Last Edit: Jan 29th, 2014, 12:52pm by 5HT » |
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Hippo
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Re: helpgoal contest
« Reply #10 on: Jan 29th, 2014, 9:05am » |
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Just to add the diagram for X=65 harvestnow made:
I bet this is the final solution.
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| « Last Edit: Jan 29th, 2014, 10:48am by Hippo » |
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harvestsnow
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Re: helpgoal contest
« Reply #11 on: Jan 29th, 2014, 10:41am » |
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There's a typo, the correct position is
Ca2 Mb1 Cb3 Rc2 Rd1 Re1 Df4 Hg3 Hg5 Rh2 Eh4 Dh6 da1 ra7 db2 cc1 rd2 re2 rf2 cf5 hg1 rg2 mg4 eh1 rh3 hh5 rh7
(dog on b2 to freeze the cats).
Ca2 Mb1 Cb3 Rc2 Rd1 Re1 Df4 Hg3 Hg5 Rh2 Eh4 Dh6 da1 ca3 db2 cc1 rd2 re2 rf2 hg1 rg2 mg4 eh1 rh3 hh5 rh7
comes close, with X=63:
This one seems really hard to beat (but we already said that for the 51 solution).
It was a collective work by 5HT, aaaa, browni3141, cadwallon, chessandgo, Hippo, jdb, kzb52, Sconibulus, Silvermitt and I probably forgot someone. Read the chat logs from january 26 to 29 to figure out the credits.
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| « Last Edit: Jan 29th, 2014, 11:04am by harvestsnow » |
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Hippo
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Re: helpgoal contest
« Reply #12 on: Jan 29th, 2014, 12:28pm » |
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on Jan 29th, 2014, 9:05am, Hippo wrote:Just to add the diagram for X=65 harvestnow made:
I bet this is the final solution.
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Oops, there is a bug there ... X=63, but it has a solution 
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| « Last Edit: Jan 29th, 2014, 12:31pm by Hippo » |
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Hippo
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Re: helpgoal contest
« Reply #13 on: Jan 29th, 2014, 1:04pm » |
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on Jan 26th, 2014, 1:05pm, kzb52 wrote:Is there any limit on the number of submissions a player may make? In any event I think that for this position X = 5 (goal on 4g) although I am far from sure. Fun contest though!
1g Cf7 Ch2 De6 Rg3 Rh3 He4 Hf4 Eg4 Rh5 Df6 Mg2
1s cf2 ch7 de3 rg6 rh6 he5 hf5 eg5 rh4 df3 mg7 |
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Actually X=4 here (2g He4w Hf4w Eg4w Cf7w
2s eg5s rg6s rh6w mg7w
3g Rh5n cf2s Mg2w Ch2w
3s ch7w Rh6n Rh7n cg7e)
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harvestsnow
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Re: helpgoal contest
« Reply #14 on: Jan 29th, 2014, 1:51pm » |
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Quote:| Oops, there is a bug there ... X=63, but it has a solution Smiley |
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Well spotted! The rabbit pull frees the camel in the first one, so it can be done one move sooner.
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