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Topic: Favourable positions... and still losing (Read 4538 times) |
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Katsunami
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Favourable positions... and still losing
« on: Apr 14th, 2012, 6:19am » |
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Hi 
Often I get into positions such as this one (playing Silver; I lost this game due to some sort of bug, as the client did not show the last Gold move, but that's not the question here):
Silver stands to win a great deal of material in this position. Sometimes, the positions are similar, but the traps are better defended then. In that case, the game becomes sort of a huge "trap dance".
The end result of that is often me getting impatient, and overseeing one move or another, losing a piece. It would be easy to say "don't get impatient then"  What I'd like to know is: are there any known ways in Arimaa to make the game more tactical and force captures more quickly?
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| « Last Edit: Apr 14th, 2012, 6:21am by Katsunami » |
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clyring
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Re: Favourable positions... and still losing
« Reply #1 on: Apr 14th, 2012, 6:37am » |
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Somehow I think that making the game more tactical would not help if you are still overlooking simple blunders regularly. 
The general rules of thumb that I use are that
-The less balanced the arrangement of major pieces is,
-The fewer the number of non-rabbit pieces is,
-The more rabbits that have been advanced,
...the sharper the position will tend to be.
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Katsunami
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Re: Favourable positions... and still losing
« Reply #2 on: Apr 14th, 2012, 7:17am » |
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In chess, my standard modus operandi is highly tactical, even against computers; I don't often overlook anything in a tactical exchange. If there are no tactics, then most of the time I do understand the position well enough to not make any huge blunders.
In Arimaa, I loose literally *everything* at the moment, and I overlook everything that can be overlooked with regard to positional play. There is always something I seem to have missed (even after reading the Wiki on tactics and strategy), and I feel that I'm completely incapable of calculating any variations. To some extent, I actually feel stupid.
It was all the same 4 years ago, and the reason why I left the game alone all that time; I'm also doubting if I should continue with writing bot_Mariko. I really believe that I cannot beat my own bot, after it generates legal moves and gets even the most basic evaluation function, and that the only way to improve it would be to make it faster with search tree pruning, and implementing other people's Arimaa knowledge.
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| « Last Edit: Apr 14th, 2012, 7:18am by Katsunami » |
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ginrunner
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Re: Favourable positions... and still losing
« Reply #3 on: Apr 14th, 2012, 12:38pm » |
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I have come across some tactical type of moves where I know I can force a capture if I set up a particular pattern 3 moves out but I also use the same set every time that tries to exploit these (and also once a player figure them out they are easy to avoid). The focus on Arimaa seems to have always been more about strategy rather than tactics so the tactics sections are much less documented. The only thing I can think for you to do is find a beginning set that you are comfortable with and notice the patterns that tend to occur more often than not. unlike chess where you can read about ways to exploit these in Arimaa you get to be the one that figures out the exploits.
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Fritzlein
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Re: Favourable positions... and still losing
« Reply #4 on: Apr 14th, 2012, 1:51pm » |
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To make the game more tactical, set up your camel on the wing opposite the opponent's camel, and use your elephant at a trap away from the opposing elephant. Make counter-threats instead of defending the opponent's threats. Every time you can trade pieces, do so, because the fewer pieces there are, the more tactical the position becomes. Of course this advice is often bad strategy, but you didn't ask how to play well, you asked how to make Arimaa more tactical.
A way to make Arimaa more tactical without playing bad moves is to persuade jdb to put his "no MHH" bot back online, or get an active developer to do the same. The bot sacrifices its MHH on the first move, and quits unless you do the same. Starting the game with 13 pieces rather than 16 makes it more of a tactical slugfest from the start.
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| « Last Edit: Apr 14th, 2012, 1:51pm by Fritzlein » |
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Katsunami
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Re: Favourable positions... and still losing
« Reply #5 on: Apr 14th, 2012, 3:47pm » |
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Hm. Playing the game with less pieces is not the way to go, IMHO. There are a few things that bother me about Arimaa, because I don't know how to deal with them, to be honest:
- Busting the elephant directly into the enemy position and start grabbing at the camel at the earliest opportunity to try to trap it on the edge often seems to be an idea that works. It feels as if in chess someone launches his queen into the middle of the enemy position. Is there a setup which would make it unfavourable for an opponent to start with a move that puts the elephant directly into the middle of your position?
- The elefant basically is immovable and can pin four pieces at once. If the beast is not in a corner or on the edge, you effectively need 8 pieces to stop him. Therefore the elephant feels overpowered. Are there ways to neutralize the elephants power, except from sticking it to a trap after trapping the camel of that player on the edge?
- There just doesn't seem to be a way to calculate anything. You can only "envision" a position you would like to try and reach, but I, at least, am unable to see a way to reach it. Very often, I miss stuff, for example that the computer can push adefending animal away away from a trap, after which another piece can be pushed into it. A computer never misses such an opportunity, but for me, they are just "too far ahead" to effectively see; in chess, I don't have that problem and can effectively calculate up to at least 7-8 ply if necessary. In Arimaa, that would be just 2 full moves. Are there any ways to see ahead better, in Arimaa?
- I really hate the so called "trap dance", when a piece is in danger of being trapped, but the trap is defended by a strong piece; the most promentent is camel vs. elephant with a defending elephant. If the camel can be taken hostage, the hostage taking player effectively has an extra camel. Is there a way to either:
1. Break the camel hostage in another way, apart from swarming the trap with defenders
2. Capitalize on the camel hostage situation without a "trap dance" that takes a huge amount of moves?
As I said in another post... for me, Arimaa still feels like chess the wrong way around :X
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Fritzlein
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Re: Favourable positions... and still losing
« Reply #6 on: Apr 14th, 2012, 4:31pm » |
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on Apr 14th, 2012, 3:47pm, Katsunami wrote:| As I said in another post... for me, Arimaa still feels like chess the wrong way around :X |
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The premise of this thread is hilarious because I could make exactly analogous arguments about chess, the game that you love. I could show a position where I went up a rook and a bishop for a knight and a pawn, with no positional weaknesses, but which I managed to lose anyway because much later on I got careless with my king. The fact is, I just wasn't very good at chess, and I kept getting checkmated, so I stopped playing.
I could say of chess that it really bugs me that my king is so vulnerable. Is there any way to deal with that other than shunting my king off to one side of the board with a bunch of protective pieces in front of it?
You could tell me to play endgames so that I could appreciate the power of the king, and I could say, "Hmmm, fewer pieces are not the answer, IHMO."
The whole argument would be true and relevant to why I never really got into chess, but in another sense it would be totally missing the point. Of course the weakness of the chess king (except in the endgame) is not a weakness of chess. It doesn't mean that chess is a shallow game or an easy game or an unfun game. Chess is intricate, deep, and subtle, but if I say that early king weakness really bugs me about chess, what reply is there? I'm just bugged by it, and there is nothing you can say to stop me from saying I am bugged by it.
Arimaa is also intricate, deep, and subtle, but of taste there is no arguing... unless you just like arguing.
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| « Last Edit: Apr 14th, 2012, 4:41pm by Fritzlein » |
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Katsunami
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Re: Favourable positions... and still losing
« Reply #7 on: Apr 14th, 2012, 6:10pm » |
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After thinking about your post, I think you squarely hit the mark... because Arimaa does not have a king, that makes that the game feels as if it is without a target, for me, anyway. Also, there are three ways to win: immobilization, capturing all rabbits, or goal. In chess, there is only one: checkmate.
Arimaa definitely is a more expansive game than chess; maybe it's too big for my game playing brain  (How would someone such as Kasparov or Anand fare at Arimaa, after some practice? I wonder.)
When I play a game of chess, I have a clear purpose what I want to achieve, and how to do it; but when I play a game of Arimaa, it looks like a mayhem of pieces, that can vastly change the setup on the board in just one move. It probably is due to my inexperience that I cannot make any sense of it. If Mr. Spock had invented a game, then it would be this one
It could be that my chess experience is in the way of playing Arimaa well. I started playing chess around 12-13 years old, and I'm completely self-taught. That's 20 years of chess experience. Without much effort I reached 1825 ELO in a few years, before I quit competitive chess; I don't know my current-day rating.
When comparing the games, Chess feels "logical", while Arimaa feels like "chaos".
Maybe it's just a matter of taste
Please don't think that I'm trying to bash Arimaa as a game, or anything; that's not it. It could just be that I found out (again?) that this is not my kind of game.
When I think about it, I must say that I didn't care too much for Cartagena either (never played a single game myself to this date), but I had some immense fun seeing the engine beat up a few somewhat experienced players Maybe I should still write that Arimaa bot just for the sake of writing it; I feel that seeing the bot compete and improve will be more fun (for me) than playing the game myself.
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| « Last Edit: Apr 14th, 2012, 6:19pm by Katsunami » |
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robinz
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Re: Favourable positions... and still losing
« Reply #8 on: Apr 14th, 2012, 6:34pm » |
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on Apr 14th, 2012, 6:10pm, Katsunami wrote:Also, there are three ways to win: immobilization, capturing all rabbits, or goal. In chess, there is only one: checkmate.
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While this is of course true as far as it goes, I must say that in practice it seems to me that goal is the only winning condition that really matters. I have certainly never seen or been involved in any game that ended in immobilisation (or where there was even ever a threat of such) - and as for capturing all rabbits, it's a very important theoretical possibility in some endgames with very reduced material, but they don't seem to happen much in practice. I've been in positions where I had a significant material advantage where I could, had I chosen, have won by slowly capturing all my opponent's rabbits, but where it was much quicker to get a rabbit to goal instead - and also those where I've been losing where my opponent was in the same position (but chose to win by playing for goal instead).
I must add a disclaimer though: I'm a fairly weak arimaa player, and also have only been playing around a year, which makes me much less experienced than most of the regular posters here. (I'd be surprised if any experienced player would disagree with my comments here - but they might )
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thomastanck
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Re: Favourable positions... and still losing
« Reply #10 on: Apr 14th, 2012, 7:50pm » |
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you probably could've won at about move 30 by goaling a rabbit... not good at arimaa, just guessing. the center was wide open and gold had no more pieces to defend with. rushing the rabbit in forces the elephant to come back, freeing your obligation of keeping a camel frame in place. followed by that another attack could be launched on the east where you used to have a frame, and that should do the trick...
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Fritzlein
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Re: Favourable positions... and still losing
« Reply #11 on: Apr 14th, 2012, 8:41pm » |
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on Apr 14th, 2012, 6:10pm, Katsunami wrote:| Arimaa definitely is a more expansive game than chess; maybe it's too big for my game playing brain |
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In fact I have also heard some other players complain that it isn't obvious what to try for when you are starting out at Arimaa. One chess fan says that Arimaa lacks the clarity of chess. My opinion about Arimaa's clarity is no longer very relevant; I can always think of something for each player to strive for to improve his position in a game of Arimaa, but maybe this is not true for new players. For chess, capture is easier, so it is easier to think how to do something in chess if you have no clue: find a way for one of your pieces to land on top of one of the other guy's pieces.
If Arimaa is not intuitive to you, there is no need to beat your head against the wall. Somehow we all have different brains, and it seemed mine was not well-suited to chess. I can only stand in awe of the people who are good at chess and at Arimaa.
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| « Last Edit: Apr 14th, 2012, 8:42pm by Fritzlein » |
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Katsunami
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Re: Favourable positions... and still losing
« Reply #12 on: Apr 16th, 2012, 4:29pm » |
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on Apr 14th, 2012, 8:41pm, Fritzlein wrote:
In fact I have also heard some other players complain that it isn't obvious what to try for when you are starting out at Arimaa. One chess fan says that Arimaa lacks the clarity of chess. My opinion about Arimaa's clarity is no longer very relevant; I can always think of something for each player to strive for to improve his position in a game of Arimaa, but maybe this is not true for new players. For chess, capture is easier, so it is easier to think how to do something in chess if you have no clue: find a way for one of your pieces to land on top of one of the other guy's pieces. |
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Yes, when just starting out, chess is much clearer than Arimaa, mainly because you can only play one move, instead of four.
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If Arimaa is not intuitive to you, there is no need to beat your head against the wall. Somehow we all have different brains, and it seemed mine was not well-suited to chess. I can only stand in awe of the people who are good at chess and at Arimaa. |
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When I do not understand something, I have the habit of becoming very persistent. I will pound away at it until I do understand it. After playing quite some games over the last few days, I have a feeling that I finally start to understand Arimaa.
I don't know if you can notice it, but I've watched a lot of your "personal vendetta" games against bot_lucy yesterday. I've tried to use some of the techniques I saw you use, against bot_Loc2007SP1, and it seems to work. The only thing I will need to learn is patience. Most of my lost games are getting so caught up defeating the bot and creating threads, that I often don't see it when the bot creates it's own thread. I dare not say how many games I've lost because of missing a goal in one or dropping a piece into a trap by moving my last defender away myself.... (I also sometimes lose games in chess because of a mate in one :X)
If I can be more patient and avoid these blatant blunders, my strength will obviously increase by a lot.
By the way: Why do you torture yourself, blitzing against a bot? You can never beat in on time. You are much stronger than bot_lucy, but the bot is strong enough to hang on for dear life, until your flag falls, most of the time in a far superior position. It inflates the bots rating, and deflates yours, but I'm sure that's superfluous information
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| « Last Edit: Apr 16th, 2012, 4:30pm by Katsunami » |
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Fritzlein
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Re: Favourable positions... and still losing
« Reply #13 on: Apr 16th, 2012, 10:00pm » |
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on Apr 16th, 2012, 4:29pm, Katsunami wrote:| I don't know if you can notice it, but I've watched a lot of your "personal vendetta" games against bot_lucy yesterday. I've tried to use some of the techniques I saw you use, against bot_Loc2007SP1, and it seems to work. |
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There is no way to tell who is watching a live game, so I am quite surprised that I had a spectator. I'm thrilled if you learned something something from those games, because I'm not sure that I learned anything at all!
Quote:| By the way: Why do you torture yourself, blitzing against a bot? You can never beat in on time. You are much stronger than bot_lucy, but the bot is strong enough to hang on for dear life, until your flag falls, most of the time in a far superior position. It inflates the bots rating, and deflates yours, but I'm sure that's superfluous information |
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I occasionally play a "serious" game of blitz to try to prove that I am better than a given bot, but more often (as in the past few days) blitz is pure stress relief, to relax me and take my mind off something else. Not only am I worse at blitz (relative to other players), I think playing blitz might develop bad habits that hurt my game at tournament speeds. Sometimes I completely forget about trying to improve at Arimaa and play for the momentary rush. Maybe also dropping to #3 in the world rankings frees me from worrying about being the best; now I can just play for the heck of it and let hanzack duke it out with chessandgo for the top spot.
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