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Topic: Move 2 (Read 11201 times) |
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jdb
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Re: Move 2
« Reply #30 on: Apr 21st, 2007, 6:19pm » |
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Quote:I know you are still not confident on my powers to dream up awkward and naļve moves , so I came up with another lone-elephant candidate... We can avoid the blood bath of 2b ed7s ed6s ed5s ed4s by simply playing 2b ed7s ed6s ed5s ed4e.
In this position, the phant threatens the lonesome cat at his eastern trap if he gets down for the E-H attack. But it doesn't mean that we would do this. Instead, in case he comes down (or better, north) with 3w Hg3n Hg4n Hg5n Ee5n, we can simply answer with 3b ee4n ee5e ... . Perhaps 3b ee4n ee5e hb7s dd8s.
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3b ee4n ee5e ef5n dd8s
Your suggestion for 2b is worth considering.
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| « Last Edit: Apr 21st, 2007, 6:22pm by jdb » |
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NIC1138
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Re: Move 2
« Reply #31 on: Apr 21st, 2007, 8:07pm » |
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on Apr 21st, 2007, 6:19pm, jdb wrote:Good one!!...
I've been analyzing this with Fritzlein, he noticed the imminent camel flipping.
4w Ee6w me7s me6s Ed6e
...I suggested 4b Hg6s ef6e eg6w ef6s , but this ends up with our camel in a fork. 
A much better response would be something like
4b ef6s Hg6w hg7s me5w
Holding the horse hostage in the trap. Altough it's not a very good prision, at least gives some time to let out camel escape!!  Our horse must be put there to stop his from pulling a rabbit and scape. The f7 rabbit is prone to a pulling tough... That horse still would do quite a damage...
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| « Last Edit: Apr 21st, 2007, 8:33pm by NIC1138 » |
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NIC1138
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Re: Move 2
« Reply #32 on: Apr 21st, 2007, 8:36pm » |
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Now, if we are to stop the EH attack before it happens, another option is 2b ed7s ed6e ee6e ef6s
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jdb
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Re: Move 2
« Reply #33 on: Apr 21st, 2007, 10:59pm » |
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Quote:I've been analyzing this with Fritzlein, he noticed the imminent camel flipping.
4w Ee6w me7s me6s Ed6e
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5b ef6s me5s me4e mf4e
I think this works, but there are alot of variations here so I probably missed something!
After analyzing some more, I really like NIC's move for 2b. It sets a nasty opening trap for gold.
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| « Last Edit: Apr 22nd, 2007, 12:11am by jdb » |
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99of9
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Re: Move 2
« Reply #34 on: Apr 22nd, 2007, 7:19am » |
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on Apr 21st, 2007, 10:59pm, jdb wrote:
5b ef6s me5s me4e mf4e
I think this works, but there are alot of variations here so I probably missed something! |
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(I think you mean 4b)
1w Ee2 Md2 Hb2 Hg2 De1 Db1 Cf2 Cc2 Ra2 Rh2 Ra1 Rc1 Rd1 Rf1 Rg1 Rh1
1b ed7 me7 hg7 hb7 dd8 df7 ce8 cc7 ra8 rb8 rc8 rf8 rg8 rh8 ra7 rh7
2w Ee2n Ee3n Ee4n Hg2n
2b ed7s ed6s ed5s ed4e
3w Hg3n Hg4n Hg5n Ee5n
3b ee4n ee5e ef5n dd8s
4w Ee6w me7s me6s Ed6e
4b ef6s me5s me4e mf4e
5w Ee6s Ee5s Ee4e Hg6e
5b ef5e eg5e eh5s mg4n
6w Ef4n mg5s Ef5e Hh6w
6b mg4w mf4w me4n me5n
7w Eg5w Ef5n me6s Ef6w
Quote:| After analyzing some more, I really like NIC's move for 2b. It sets a nasty opening trap for gold. |
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What's the trap? What have we got out of this? It seems to me we still have an exposed camel, and he has an exposed horse.
I think it's interesting, but I need more convincing. An entire camel hostage may hang on this move if we're not careful.
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| « Last Edit: Apr 22nd, 2007, 7:20am by 99of9 » |
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99of9
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Re: Move 2
« Reply #35 on: Apr 22nd, 2007, 7:36am » |
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on Apr 22nd, 2007, 7:19am, 99of9 wrote:
1w Ee2 Md2 Hb2 Hg2 De1 Db1 Cf2 Cc2 Ra2 Rh2 Ra1 Rc1 Rd1 Rf1 Rg1 Rh1
1b ed7 me7 hg7 hb7 dd8 df7 ce8 cc7 ra8 rb8 rc8 rf8 rg8 rh8 ra7 rh7
2w Ee2n Ee3n Ee4n Hg2n
2b ed7s ed6s ed5s ed4e
3w Hg3n Hg4n Hg5n Ee5n
3b ee4n ee5e ef5n dd8s
4w Ee6w me7s me6s Ed6e
4b ef6s me5s me4e mf4e
5w Ee6s Ee5s Ee4e Hg6e |
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Oh, maybe then we should play:
5b ef5e mg4e mh4n eg5n
so if he wants a camel hostage, we get a horse for it, and if he defends the horse, we'll probably get the horse hostage with our camel!!
So instead, he could play:
1w Ee2 Md2 Hb2 Hg2 De1 Db1 Cf2 Cc2 Ra2 Rh2 Ra1 Rc1 Rd1 Rf1 Rg1 Rh1
1b ed7 me7 hg7 hb7 dd8 df7 ce8 cc7 ra8 rb8 rc8 rf8 rg8 rh8 ra7 rh7
2w Ee2n Ee3n Ee4n Hg2n
2b ed7s ed6s ed5s ed4e
3w Hg3n Hg4n Hg5n Ee5n
3b ee4n ee5e ef5n dd8s
4w Ee6w me7s me6s Ed6e
4b ef6s me5s me4e mf4e
5w Ee6s Ee5s Ee4e Hg6s
Then what do we do?
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99of9
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Re: Move 2
« Reply #36 on: Apr 22nd, 2007, 7:43am » |
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on Apr 21st, 2007, 10:59pm, jdb wrote:| After analyzing some more, I really like NIC's move for 2b. It sets a nasty opening trap for gold. |
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And if he doesn't take the bait? He could now play the move I suggested earlier:
1w Ee2 Md2 Hb2 Hg2 De1 Db1 Cf2 Cc2 Ra2 Rh2 Ra1 Rc1 Rd1 Rf1 Rg1 Rh1
1b ed7 me7 hg7 hb7 dd8 df7 ce8 cc7 ra8 rb8 rc8 rf8 rg8 rh8 ra7 rh7
2w Ee2n Ee3n Ee4n Hg2n
2b ed7s ed6s ed5s ed4e
3w Ee5w Ed5n Ed6n Hb2n
and now it would be even more effective because our elephant is further away, so Fritz's defence no longer works as well.
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jdb
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Re: Move 2
« Reply #37 on: Apr 22nd, 2007, 8:26am » |
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If the trap of not advancing the horse to g7 works (and that is still a big if) there is nothing special about placing the elephant on e4 on move 2b. Anything that keeps the elephant with three steps of f6 should be ok. Or four steps if the dog is advanced to d7 on 2b.
Unfortunately I dont see a solution to your 5w move moving the horse on h6 south 
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| « Last Edit: Apr 22nd, 2007, 8:26am by jdb » |
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NIC1138
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Re: Move 2
« Reply #38 on: Apr 22nd, 2007, 10:42am » |
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I was never a big fan of 4b ef6s me5s me4e mf4e myself...
It does "protect" the rh7, because the camel seems so fragile.
There are alternatives, but they let his horse free to do some damage The first is the one I said, with Hg6w hg7n. This one lets the horse free to do some wild mustang action behind the trap.
Moving the camel to c4 buys ome time, but I didn't see any win. c5 too...
But a curious altenative is 4b ef6s me5w md5w mc5n. His phant can't push the camel, and would have to pull it. And there is not even time to do it!...
He would probably go for a horse pull-and-run, question is if it would setill be worthy trying to get his horse.
Anyway we shouldn't have played this opening anyway!    I believe this elections my vote will be "conservative"!...
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RonWeasley
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Re: Move 2
« Reply #39 on: Apr 22nd, 2007, 1:29pm » |
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Are we ready to vote on the candidates? I think there are four. ed7s hg7s df7e me7e, e to d4 and h to g6, e to d3, and e to e4. I'll use standard notation in the election.
Any others? Any final statements about relative merits?
I prefer e to d4 and h to g6, but I want to look closer at e to e4.
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Fritzlein
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Re: Move 2
« Reply #40 on: Apr 22nd, 2007, 3:03pm » |
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on Apr 22nd, 2007, 1:29pm, RonWeasley wrote:| Are we ready to vote on the candidates? I think there are four. |
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What about 99of9's move?
on Apr 20th, 2007, 7:21am, 99of9 wrote:... I think we should consider the preventative move:
2b ed7s ed6s hg7s dd8s |
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If that's the first preference of at least one player, it should be on the ballot, right? Also there was another suggestion
on Apr 21st, 2007, 9:39am, jdb wrote:Another possibility is
2b ed7s ed6s hg7s hb7s
This allows silver's camel a little more breathing room.
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Maybe that isn't JDB's first choice, and it isn't fair for JDB to get to put two moves on the ballot, but I got the impression from him in chat this morning that he was leaning away from NIC's suggestion of e->e4 and towards advancing both horses.
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99of9
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Re: Move 2
« Reply #41 on: Apr 22nd, 2007, 4:42pm » |
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I think we should include in the ballots every move that is ever contemplated, irrespective of how many the author has put in. Even if it's nobody's first preference, it's possible to be the compromise winner in this voting system.
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Fritzlein
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Re: Move 2
« Reply #42 on: Apr 22nd, 2007, 5:41pm » |
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Oh, on closer look I see JDB has only made one suggestion, so it should definitely be included. If someone suggests only one move, and they don't explicitly withdraw that suggestion, then it should be included on the ballot automatically.
I'm not sure I agree that every move that gets mentioned in the discussion should be on the ballot. For this move, I wouldn't mind, since I count only six explicit suggestions, but I could see it getting out of hand on some other move. One concern is that I would like to be able to suggest a bunch of plausible moves without checking them first, and later settle on my favorite without all the garbage necessarily showing up on the ballot.
On the other hand, maybe I'm just over-estimating the probable number of candidates. It's weird to think that in positions with thousands of possible moves, we would only seriously consider five or six possibilities, but maybe that will be the case.
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| « Last Edit: Apr 22nd, 2007, 5:45pm by Fritzlein » |
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arimaa_master
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Re: Move 2
« Reply #43 on: Apr 23rd, 2007, 6:40am » |
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on Apr 20th, 2007, 2:06pm, Fritzlein wrote:
My general experience has been that pieces which try to threaten to blockade an opposing elephant without the help of the friendly elephant will just get themselves in trouble. After
2b ed7s ed6s ed5s hg7s
3w Hg3n Hg4n Hg5e Hh5n
3b rh7w ed4s Md2e ed3s
4w Me2n De1n Rd1e Hb2n
My instinct says there must be some way to take advantage of the exposed gold pieces. What about
4b ed2n Me3n ed3e hb7s
threating to capture a piece or harass the camel? Note that if his elephant leaves e5, our camel can zip to g6 for a free horse hostage. There are lots of possible lines in a wild opening like that, but my gut feel is that we stand no worse and probably better. That's not even counting our other options on 3b. I think 3w in this line is dubious and basically throws away the first-move advantage, so I don't expect to see it. |
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Hey Karl, I was first who suggested this 4b see:
on Apr 20th, 2007, 3:09am, arimaa_master wrote:
I think your 4w is very solid.
We can try to play: 4b ed2n Me3n ed3e hb7s
but I don“t see any initiative for us after: 5w Me4e Ee5s Cc2e Db1n
Or can we afford something crazy like: 4b Cc2n ed2w ec2w me7w ? |
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I know I know - I am like a child but your "what about" seemed to be like you first invented this move - in fact I am happy that you and me found the same move 
However you gave new insight with explanations - so thanks
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| « Last Edit: Apr 23rd, 2007, 6:40am by arimaa_master » |
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99of9
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Re: Move 2
« Reply #44 on: Apr 23rd, 2007, 6:55am » |
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This is why we need some kind of wiki: to keep track of all the variations that someone has already thought up!
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