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   Author  Topic: Move 6  (Read 2145 times)
99of9
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Move 6
« on: Jun 27th, 2007, 9:17pm »
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Any predictions?
 
I'm just setting up the topic so I can get notifications when someone posts Jean's move.
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arimaa_master
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Re: Move 6
« Reply #1 on: Jun 28th, 2007, 2:50am »
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on Jun 27th, 2007, 9:17pm, 99of9 wrote:
Any predictions?

 
I guess 6w Ed6s Mc5s Ed5w Mc4s would be good reply (sorry not to mention this reply in previous discussion - but I was short of time and very busy) and then I have no idea for our 6b so far.  
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RonWeasley
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Re: Move 6
« Reply #2 on: Jun 28th, 2007, 7:30am »
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I like arimaa_master's move in that it blocks our e from the center.  It's realistic to plan against it.  However I think it represents a very even position.  I don't put value on our horse hostage, so I don't want to move our e more to the side, but we might want to organize things so our camel can get to this horse eventually.  Still I would avoid committing our camel to either side at this point.
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Fritzlein
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Re: Move 6
« Reply #3 on: Jun 28th, 2007, 8:42am »
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I also like arimaa_master's suggested move for chessandgo.  Let me draw attention to my ongoing postal tournament game against Adanac.  Our position after chessandgo plays arimaa_master's move 6w would be very like my position was after Adanac's move 4b.
 
In my game against Adanac, I clearly lost the opening.  I emerged with my camel holding a nice horse hostage, and a dog frame to boot, but lost two rabbits in the process.  The two rabbits Adanac won were worth considerably more than my hostage/frame combo, and I am quite lucky that Adanac let me regroup and improve my position in the middlegame.  We definitely need to handle the opening of the Mob game better than I handled it in that game.
 
Do not think badly of our position here just because I bungled it against Adanac.  If chessandgo plays arimaa_master's move (rather than some sort of swarming) it will only clarify in my mind that we are winning.  For starters, chessandgo would be a couple of steps further from an effective attack on our other home trap than Adanac was.
 
More importantly, however, since I blew it against Adanac, a better path for persecuting the horse hostage has occurred to me.  Ron has mentioned part of it already: we shouldn't immediately switch sides with our camel.  The fact is that, if the opposing camel goes to the other wing, we can threaten a horse frame instead of camel-holding-horse.
 
It is a subtle point that the attacker in the situation can foil any attempts at a horse frame by keeping the camel local.  When you try to  
 
We have to stay flexible enough to make this choice: if chessandgo's camel stays on the same wing where we have the horse hostage, our objective is to pass the horse hostage off to our camel.  If, instead, chessandgo switches his camel to the other wing, we need to be prepared to threaten a horse frame.
 
More details later; now I must get ready for work.
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Re: Move 6
« Reply #4 on: Jun 28th, 2007, 2:43pm »
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Chessandgo has played 6w Ed6s Mc5s Ed5w Mc4e.
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Fritzlein
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Re: Move 6
« Reply #5 on: Jun 28th, 2007, 10:55pm »
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Thanks for noticing and posting chessandgo's move, John.  That maximizes our time to discuss and decide.
 
Chessandgo's choice leaves his camel two steps closer to attacking the f6 trap than arimaa_master's move would have.  We might still have time to threaten a horse frame in c6, but in the circumstance I think we have to look first at attacking the exposed camel.
 
6b eb5s eb4e Md4n ec4e leaves us in a terrible position after 7w Md5n Md6w hb6s Mc6w.
 
6b eb5s eb4e Md4e ec4e is better, but still ultimately loses us tempo after 7w Ec5e Ed5e Me4s Ha5n, when we have nothing better to do than run our elephant back to take the horse hostage again, in a worse position than we are now.
 
6b eb5s Ha5e eb4e me7w, on the other hand, may actually gain us time by bringing our camel to d7 on a move when it can't be flipped.  Possible responses include
 
6b eb5s Ha5e eb4e me7w
7w Ec5e Ed5n Hb5w Ha5n
7b cc7s md7w cc6s hb6s
 
and now his horse must run away empty handed or be caught by our camel.  The are some tactical lines, but I think we have plenty of play.  Alternatively
 
6b eb5s Ha5e eb4e me7w
7w Ec5e Md4s Ed5n Hb5w
7b ec4n ec5w eb5e Ha5e
 
and he can't afford to flip our camel, similar to the position I voted for on move 4b.  As I said then, I think his best option from this situation is to run away with his horse to fight another day, because if he lingers trying to get a rabbit pull, we'll be able to secure his horse with our camel.
 
6b eb5s Ha5e eb4e me7w
7w Dd2n Md4e Me4e Mf4s
7b md7s md6w xxxx xxxx
 
again appears to force his horse to flee with nothing.  Perhaps someone will come up with a better move 7w for chessandgo, but for the moment pulling his horse, freezing his camel, and sliding our camel to d7 looks quite solid to me.
« Last Edit: Jun 28th, 2007, 10:56pm by Fritzlein » IP Logged

arimaa_master
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Re: Move 6a
« Reply #6 on: Jun 29th, 2007, 3:31am »
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I took a fresh look without reading comments and it is amazing that I totally matched with moves and explanations with Fritzlein:
 
on Jun 28th, 2007, 10:55pm, Fritzlein wrote:

 
6b eb5s eb4e Md4n ec4e leaves us in a terrible position after 7w Md5n Md6w hb6s Mc6w.
 
6b eb5s eb4e Md4e ec4e is better, but still ultimately loses us tempo after 7w Ec5e Ed5e Me4s Ha5n, when we have nothing better to do than run our elephant back to take the horse hostage again, in a worse position than we are now.
 

 
 
His final suggestion
 
on Jun 28th, 2007, 10:55pm, Fritzlein wrote:

 
6b eb5s Ha5e eb4e me7w, on the other hand, may actually gain us time by bringing our camel to d7 on a move when it can't be flipped.  Possible responses include
 
6b eb5s Ha5e eb4e me7w
7w Ec5e Ed5n Hb5w Ha5n
7b cc7s md7w cc6s hb6s
 
and now his horse must run away empty handed or be caught by our camel.  The are some tactical lines, but I think we have plenty of play.  Alternatively
 
6b eb5s Ha5e eb4e me7w
7w Ec5e Md4s Ed5n Hb5w
7b ec4n ec5w eb5e Ha5e
 
and he can't afford to flip our camel, similar to the position I voted for on move 4b.  As I said then, I think his best option from this situation is to run away with his horse to fight another day, because if he lingers trying to get a rabbit pull, we'll be able to secure his horse with our camel.
 
6b eb5s Ha5e eb4e me7w
7w Dd2n Md4e Me4e Mf4s
7b md7s md6w xxxx xxxx
 
again appears to force his horse to flee with nothing.  Perhaps someone will come up with a better move 7w for chessandgo, but for the moment pulling his horse, freezing his camel, and sliding our camel to d7 looks quite solid to me.

 
 
seems to be fine:  
in line:  
6b eb5s Ha5e eb4e me7w
7w Ec5e Ed5n Hb5w Ha5n
7b cc7s md7w cc6s hb6s
 
I really admire this 7b - perfect  
I wonder if this 7b could be used in the second line too
(originally:  
6b eb5s Ha5e eb4e me7w
7w Ec5e Md4s Ed5n Hb5w
7b ec4n ec5w eb5e Ha5e
)
 
 
Ok, and now maybe I have a slightly better move for Chessandgo:
 
6b eb5s Ha5e eb4e me7w
7w Ec5e Ed5n md7e Ed6n
 
simply prevents our camel to cross to the desired side - but there are pretty wild continuations and I am not sure who will be better then - although I believe that we I add another suggestion for our 6b (my original one from the very first fresh look Smiley)
so:
 
 
!!! 6b eb5s Ha5e eb4e Hb5s !!!
 
This double horse pull leaves us with open possibilities:
. we threaten to push Gold's camel to d6
. preventing the horse from immediate pull of our rabbit
 
and I believe that our position after 6b eb5s Ha5e eb4e Hb5s is already slightly better Smiley
 
 
Now take me as I am - eat all my moves and don´t let me even think that I could be right Smiley
 
I am looking forward to be smashed again :-D
« Last Edit: Jun 29th, 2007, 3:33am by arimaa_master » IP Logged
RonWeasley
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Re: Move 6
« Reply #7 on: Jun 29th, 2007, 7:20am »
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I looked at replies where C&G puts the camel on c6.  Defending by moving our e to d6 looks dangerous, but defending by moving our e to b5 and m to d6 looks to give us the M hostage.  So either Fritzlein's or arimaa_master's moves work out good for me.  I think a single horse pull is sufficient, so I favor Fritzlein's move.  After eb5s eb4e, we don't actually have to pull the horse at all because of our threat to the camel.  It seems the value in pulling the horse comes from taking it out of rabbit pulling range on future moves.  If we had something better to do on our other two steps, we could leave the H on a5.  But I don't see anything better, so pulling the horse and developing the camel is fine with me.  I don't want to use the other two steps to reposition dogs or cats because that would just make them more targetable.
 
This may be an easy move where we can get back some reserve.  I want to schedule the vote to begin Tuesday morning and end Wednesday afternoon.  If the mobsters agree, I could begin the voting as early as Monday morning with a Tuesday afternoon end.
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99of9
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Re: Move 6
« Reply #8 on: Jun 29th, 2007, 7:53am »
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Fritz, how would you respond to:
6b eb5s Ha5e eb4e me7w  
7w Ec5e Md4s Hb5w Ha5n
 
Now, here's my first impulse:
6b cc7e cd7s me7w md7w
 
How would you all respond to that?  Obviously the intent is to forcibly get his horse in trouble.  However if he counterattacks too aggressively with his camel, or tries to get our cat, our elephant could run (leaving at most a horse free to pull a rabbit), and get his camel in trouble.
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Fritzlein
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Re: Move 6
« Reply #9 on: Jun 29th, 2007, 9:04am »
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Let me throw out another possibility:
 
6b eb5s eb4e Db3n md7w
 
Intuitively our threat to the dog is great than chessandgo's threat to pull our a-rabbit, i.e. we can permit  him to pull our rabbit if we are getting his dog into trouble at the same time.  Without looking at it carefully at all, this is my new favorite.
 
on Jun 29th, 2007, 7:53am, 99of9 wrote:

Now, here's my first impulse:
6b cc7e cd7s me7w md7w
 
How would you all respond to that?

My knee-jerk reaction (not analyzed) is camel to g5 for chessandgo.  The threat seems too strong to ignore, but our elephant takes a long time to cross due to his elephant in the way.
 
I have to go to work, but the weekend starts soon, and I'll get more concrete with my analysis then.
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Re: Move 6
« Reply #10 on: Jun 29th, 2007, 7:14pm »
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on Jun 29th, 2007, 7:20am, RonWeasley wrote:
This may be an easy move where we can get back some reserve.  I want to schedule the vote to begin Tuesday morning and end Wednesday afternoon.  If the mobsters agree, I could begin the voting as early as Monday morning with a Tuesday afternoon end.

I am not sure this is an easy move, given that I have already changed my mind once.  However, I support a quick time frame, since the discussion got going quickly and will span a weekend.  Then our reserve will be available for worser emergencies.
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Fritzlein
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Re: Move 6a
« Reply #11 on: Jun 29th, 2007, 7:44pm »
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on Jun 29th, 2007, 3:31am, arimaa_master wrote:
I wonder if this 7b could be used in the second line too:

I'm not sure.  We aren't threatening the camel, since we don't hold it hostage in that line, so he could conceivably retreat his horse and try for a lone elephant attack, for example:
 
6b eb5s Ha5e eb4e me7w
7w Ec5e Md4s Ed5n Hb5w
7b cc7s md7w cc6s hb6s
8w Ha5s Ed6n mc7s Ed7w
 
But now that I look at it, we should be all right in that position.  One key is that he can't use 8w to attack our cat.  I guess our "loose" defense on 7b is more useful than I thought.  I will look at it in other lines, as you suggest.  
 
Quote:
Ok, and now maybe I have a slightly better move for Chessandgo:
 
6b eb5s Ha5e eb4e me7w
7w Ec5e Ed5n md7e Ed6n

I don't think he can afford to hang his camel out to to dry like that, simply to prevent our camel from crossing.  After
 
 
6b eb5s Ha5e eb4e me7w
7w Ec5e Ed5n md7e Ed6n
7b Md4n ec4e Md5n ed4n
 
suddenly Gold is in very bad shape.  Material loss within a few moves is probably inevitable.  So I don't count this as a refutation of my original idea for 6b.
 
Quote:
!!! 6b eb5s Ha5e eb4e Hb5s !!!

My intuition was that stepping our camel to d7 is really essential if we want to scare away the gold horse.  It seems like pulling away the horse is a less-urgent task, because getting it further away from our rabbit also gets it further away from a valuable frame or hostage situation.  On the other hand, I don't see how Gold can easily take advantage.  The most obvious move
 
6b eb5s Ha5e eb4e Hb5s
7w Hb4n Hb5w Ec5e Ed5n
 
doesn't work for Gold because it is repetition!  Meanwhile we are fine after something less aggressive like  
 
6b eb5s Ha5e eb4e Hb5s
7w Hb4w Ec5e Md4s Ed5n
 
that doesn't threaten an immediate rabbit pull.  So I guess I rate this 6b as leading to an equal position for us.
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Re: Move 6
« Reply #12 on: Jun 29th, 2007, 8:07pm »
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on Jun 29th, 2007, 7:20am, RonWeasley wrote:
I looked at replies where C&G puts the camel on c6.  Defending by moving our e to d6 looks dangerous, but defending by moving our e to b5 and m to d6 looks to give us the M hostage.

Ah, thanks for considering a camel rush to c6.  I totally overlooked that possibility.  I think you found our best defense on 7b, but actually getting that camel as a hostage could be tricky.  What line of play were you foreseeing?  After
 
6b eb5s Ha5e eb4e me7w
7w Dd2n Md4n Md5n Md6w
7b md7s ec4w Hb5w eb4n
8w Db3w Da3n Ha5n Da4n
 
I don't see how we make progress.  We aren't in any danger at the moment, but I don't see a good path to rearranging our pieces.  What do folks suggest?  It may be that the camel advance on 7w is actually strong!
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Re: Move 6
« Reply #13 on: Jun 29th, 2007, 11:10pm »
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on Jun 29th, 2007, 7:53am, 99of9 wrote:
Fritz, how would you respond to:
6b eb5s Ha5e eb4e me7w  
7w Ec5e Md4s Hb5w Ha5n

I think we can easily forestall the rabbit pull if he doesn't try to prevent our camel from crossing.
 
6b eb5s Ha5e eb4e me7w  
7w Ec5e Md4s Hb5w Ha5n
7b md7s dd8s md6w
8w Ha6n Ha7s ra8s Ha6s
8b ec4n hb6s mc6w cb6w
 
and I think we are winning.  Of course, he could instead run away with his horse on 8w, which brings it more or less back to even.  
 
Quote:
Now, here's my first impulse:
6b cc7e cd7s me7w md7w

Hehe, that looks suspiciously like the move I played against Adanac.  Clearly it was my first impulse as well, but now I shy away given the way he schooled me.  
 
6b cc7e cd7s me7w md7w
7w Md4w Me4w Mf4w Mg4n
7b eb5s eb4e ec4w ed4e
8w Hg3e Mg5s Mg4s Ec5e
 
His 7w isn't his only option, but if he plays it we are definitely forced to cross with our elephant immediately.  Where do we stand after 8w?  I guess there is no impending catastrophe, but Gold is still threatening to pull our a8-rabbit as well as threatening our exposed cat.  I think I'd prefer to be playing Gold there.
 
Yet even if this line works out OK for us, I'm suspicious the chessandgo has plenty of time to start a safer attack against us, with his horse leading the camel.  After our 6b, I count that we need ten steps to get the hostage horse passed to our camel, plus five or six to get our elephant across to gain control on the other side.  Chessandgo would be able to attack very deliberately, and if his horse was out in front, his camel wouldn't have to run away when our elephant switched sides.  He could instead move  his elephant to d6, retreat his a-file horse, and have the mirror image in the east of the attack he just gave up in the west, except probably with a time gain.
 
That's just my strategic guess; my one line certainly doesn't justify it.
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Re: Move 6
« Reply #14 on: Jun 30th, 2007, 11:18am »
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On a second look, I still like
 
6b eb5s eb4e Db3n me7w
 
It seems to give us a secondary threat in some lines, a threat greater than chessandgo's threat to pull our a-rabbit.   A dog hostage is much nicer than a horse hostage, because ultimately it can be passed off to either of our horses to hold.  It doesn't require our camel to be on a certain wing.  Also a dog is bigger than a cat or a rabbit, so we don't have to shut down his minor threats to come out ahead.
 
For example
6b eb5s eb4e Db3n me7w
7w Ec5e Md4s Ed5n Ha5n
7b cc7s md7w cc6s hb6s
 
Leaves us in much better shape than previous similar lines.
 
Indeed, my biggest worry about this line is Ron's idea of the camel charge, transposing after
 
6b eb5s eb4e Db3n me7w
7w Dd2n Md4n Md5n Md6w
7b Db4s ec4w eb4n md7s
8w Db3w Da3n Ha5n Da4n
 
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