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   Author  Topic: Move 1  (Read 10159 times)
The_Jeh
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Move 1
« on: Apr 11th, 2007, 4:01pm »
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I think we can start discussing our setup choice, since we can't stop chessandgo from thinking about his.
« Last Edit: Apr 11th, 2007, 4:05pm by The_Jeh » IP Logged
RonWeasley
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Re: Move 1
« Reply #1 on: Apr 11th, 2007, 5:53pm »
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I like the 99of9 setup.  I use cats back.
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nbarriga
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Re: Move 1
« Reply #2 on: Apr 11th, 2007, 6:18pm »
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I prefer dogs back.
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Fritzlein
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Re: Move 1
« Reply #3 on: Apr 11th, 2007, 6:21pm »
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If chessandgo uses the same setup he did in all of his postal games:
 
Code:

RDRRDRRR
RHCMECHR
........
........
........
........
........
........

 
Then I vote for the 99of9 setup with dogs behind the traps:
 
Code:

RDRRDRRR
RHCMECHR
........
........
........
........
rhdemdhr
rrrccrrr

 
Chessandgo has a ferocious reputation, but at the end of the day he is a rabbit-puller.  He will jump into an EH attack, and just when you getting ready to punish the advanced horse, he will bail out and use his horse to pull back a rabbit.
 
With this in mind I would consider keeping all eight rabbits back, so as to give him no targets on the wings.  Unfortuantely, it is too easy for a rabbit on d8 or e8 to get pulled to d7 or e7, preventing our camel from having access to both wings.  Once our camel is stuck on one wing, you can rest assured chessandgo will attack with EH on the other.  So having the two flank rabbits a little exposed is the lesser of two evils.
 
Having an unbalanced setup with M on one side and HH on the other is OK for attack, but I'm a defensive player, and the unbalancing actually hurts defense on both wings.  On the HH side there is nothing to chase away an attacking H, while on the M side the M itself is vulnerable to an attacking elephant.  Therefore I want to balance horses and put them on b6 and g6 where they belong.  That still gives us E+H attacking options on each wing.
 
Some will say we need cats behind the home traps, so that we lose less if we abandon a home trap while attacking.  I say Silver has no good options for abandoning a home trap in the opening, since Gold is always a turn ahead in any race attack.  Because we can't afford to race, we are going to defend our home traps.  As long as we must defend our home traps, let's defend them vigorously.
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camelback
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Re: Move 1
« Reply #4 on: Apr 11th, 2007, 9:25pm »
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I also prefer 99of9 setup with cats back, because later in the game, dogs can come up and they are relatively less vulnerable than cats.
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NIC1138
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Re: Move 1
« Reply #5 on: Apr 11th, 2007, 11:38pm »
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I wont miss the chance to campaing for my own setup Ive been toying with down here at the 1600 rating world. Cool (tough my rank has been inflating lately)
 
Code:
..k..k..
MHCDDEHR
RRRRRCRR

Just look at any of my recent games... Opening is always Hn En En Cn. Not quite "new", but I couldnt learn any intrinsic weaknesses yet... The cats behind the kill houses are aiming at late-game. My usual strategy is trying to capture a horse or any other "officer"...
 
It doesnt actually work well against 2000+ players tough. Just see my last 2 games against chessandgo himself to see its far from obvious... I would love comments about their openings, revealing my newbie navet! Roll Eyes He actually manages to pull a second-rank rabbit in the beginning of one of them!!
« Last Edit: Apr 11th, 2007, 11:44pm by NIC1138 » IP Logged
arimaa_master
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Re: Move 1
« Reply #6 on: Apr 12th, 2007, 3:02am »
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Nice explanation Karl, I agree with your suggested setup.
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99of9
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Re: Move 1
« Reply #7 on: Apr 12th, 2007, 5:48am »
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I figure I'd better mount a spirited defence of the classic 99of9 setup (cats back behind traps):
 
Dogs are only more "vigorous" when attacked by a dog.  When was the last time any of us got attacked by a dog in the opening?
 
The pieces behind the trap are for the mid or endgame.
 
In the endgame it is better to have cats there and dogs further in front.
 
In the midgame, there is a chance that we will trade traps (silver is no different to gold by midgame).  In that case, any dog or cat left there will die (attacks with dogs are still rare in midgame).  So once again it's better to have a cat behind the trap.
« Last Edit: Apr 12th, 2007, 4:41pm by 99of9 » IP Logged
Fritzlein
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Re: Move 1
« Reply #8 on: Apr 12th, 2007, 8:01am »
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on Apr 12th, 2007, 5:48am, 99of9 wrote:
I figure I'd better mount a spirited defence of the classic 99of9 setup (cats back):

Just so we are all speaking the same language: I think you are arguing for cats behind the traps.  This is the same as what other people are calling "dogs back", in reference to e8 and d8 on the back rank.
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The_Jeh
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Re: Move 1
« Reply #9 on: Apr 12th, 2007, 8:38am »
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Is there any merit in putting a cat behind one trap and a dog behind the other?  Just thought I'd ask.
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OLTI
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Re: Move 1
« Reply #10 on: Apr 12th, 2007, 8:53am »
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I would prefer dogs behind traps.
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NIC1138
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Re: Move 1
« Reply #11 on: Apr 12th, 2007, 9:27am »
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Im against the camel in the middle of the board... Isnt it the most fragile stone in the opening, against someone with a phant in the middle on the other side?
 
A rabbit in the middle for example is a recipe for starting with a punch in the nose. I learned it the bad way... Shocked Why let a camel there, and not an uninteresting dog or cat, if the elephant is very probably going down there anyway? Better to keep the camel safe. I see it less as a "defense stone" and more as a burden to be taken care of! Grin Its more useful to have it free to make a subreptitious attack after luring the phant to the other side of the board...
« Last Edit: Apr 12th, 2007, 9:28am by NIC1138 » IP Logged
Fritzlein
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Re: Move 1
« Reply #12 on: Apr 12th, 2007, 10:32am »
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on Apr 12th, 2007, 8:38am, The_Jeh wrote:
Is there any merit in putting a cat behind one trap and a dog behind the other?  Just thought I'd ask.

Good question.  I think I experimented with that about two years ago and rejected the idea, but my arguments (insofar as I remember them) don't persuade me now, at least not for Silver.
 
For Gold I want cats behind both traps so I have the option of launching a capture race.  There's no point in putting a cat behind one and a dog behind the other, because my opponent will focus on the one where he can get the dog.  I might as well have dogs behind both traps if I have a dog behind either.
 
However, as Silver, I don't plan to abandon either home trap right away.  There is a fair probability that the piece that starts behind the home trap doesn't stay there, because of the common maneuver of pushing the horse up, putting the piece that was behind the trap behind the horse instead, and then putting a different piece behind the trap.
 
Now, what if I am likely to pull this rotation on one wing but not the other?  I haven't thought about this much, but maybe I tend to rotate on the camel side more often than on the elephant side.  If that's true then I might prefer to start with
 
Code:

..x..x..
rhcemdhr
rrrdcrrr

 
I'm not sure how I feel about this yet, but it seems plausible to me.
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Fritzlein
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Re: Move 1
« Reply #13 on: Apr 12th, 2007, 10:36am »
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on Apr 12th, 2007, 9:27am, NIC1138 wrote:
Im against the camel in the middle of the board... Isnt it the most fragile stone in the opening, against someone with a phant in the middle on the other side?

Actually, it turns out that it is easier for a centralized camel to evade the opposing elephant than for a flank camel.  The opposing elephant can pin a flank camel against the side of the board, which means it can't retreat even if a friendly piece is nearby to unfreeze it.  True, it may take longer for an elephant to go way over to the side of the board to threaten the camel, but once the opposing elephant is near, the flank camel is in more danger.
 
In any event, the central camel is more of a defensive idea in my book.  I want it to scare horses away from both sides.  If our camel is on one wing, how do we punish a horse advance on the other wing?
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Fritzlein
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Re: Move 1
« Reply #14 on: Apr 12th, 2007, 10:45am »
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on Apr 11th, 2007, 11:38pm, NIC1138 wrote:
Code:
..k..k..
MHCDDEHR
RRRRRCRR

This setup is fine if we want to attack with EH on the right and MH on the left side.  It's powerful and fast, but it commits us to that one plan.
 
My concern is that it isn't flexible.  We have only one plan then.  We can't play  lone-elephant attack so well (because our right flank is weaker), and we can't easily switch to EH on the left and MH on the right.
 
If we have EM in the middle and a horse on each flank, like the 99of9 setup, then we can do EH attack on either side with an MH attack on the other.  Also we can do an EHM attack on either side, which is a reason chessandgo likes it.  Most important (from my style) we have good defense on both sides, so we can do a lone-elephant attack.  
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