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   Author  Topic: Move 1  (Read 10170 times)
RonWeasley
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Re: Move 1
« Reply #15 on: Apr 12th, 2007, 10:59am »
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I like camel in the middle so it can support piece pulling if I get lucky enough to do that.  If the enemy elephant gets close, I hide it only then.
 
The rotation behind horses of the original behind trap piece is common for me and I prefer a dog doing this than the weaker cat.  That's why I like dogs behind traps and cats back.  This also supports the structure of strong in front and weak toward the back.
 
I play lone elephant and don't like race openings.  In general, I try to gain tempo in the opening.  I want to be able to apply a threat in fewer steps than the enemy can apply a similar threat.  This should translate into me capturing a piece and threatening the next one before the enemy finishes its capture.  In practice, dogs back or cats back hasn't made a big difference for me, but I still use cats back.
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Fritzlein
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Re: Move 1
« Reply #16 on: Apr 12th, 2007, 1:19pm »
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Oh, no!  Only 6 days and 22 hours left!
 
Just kidding.  I notice we are starting with a full reserve, so there is no benefit to taking less than a week to decide on our setup.  Don't let's hurry.  On the other hand, since it looks like some version of 99of9 setup will win (and the cat/dog placement is a minor issue), what may take the most time is working out the last details of the voting mechanics.
 
How will the setups be presented?  In standard Arimaa notation?  As a layout?  Will there be accompanying text, such as "99of9 setup, cats back"?  Which setups will be part of the vote, and which won't get promoted from the discussion to the election?  Even if we let each person propose one setup to be voted on, I have already proposed two.  When do I have to decide which is my real proposal?  When we go to vote on the move, will the name of the person proposing the move appear next to the move?
 
I expect we will find the best way by trial and error, and we should give Ron wide latitude to use his judgment while we work out a consensus on our favorite procedure.
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NIC1138
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Re: Move 1
« Reply #17 on: Apr 12th, 2007, 2:17pm »
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Mr. president, I ask the word as leader of minority of the Lower Chamber, to ask again for considerations on our new and innovative proposals!...
 
I had the opportunity to execute a recent experiment about the subject in question, inviting our nemesis for a test match.  
 
http://arimaa.com/arimaa/games/jsShowGame.cgi?gid=49719&s=b
 
The commander of the Axis acted as I expected, running for the middle stone and pulling it up. What better stone to spend then a cat? On the meanwhile the upper-right Red District was dominated. Unfortunately I decided to be careless about the left slaughterhouse... But had I protected it simply moving one of the nearby stones, the maneuver could have been less disastrous.
 
It might be a strategy to consider: leaving a cat or a rabbit in the place of that poor dog, to lure him down there, while trying to get a better control over his side. Grin  But I don't quite believe he would do that... He is certainly expecting a better performance of the Mob, and would be suspicious to do something like this. Smiley
 
But I still stand up for my setup!!...
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NIC1138
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Re: Move 1
« Reply #18 on: Apr 12th, 2007, 2:21pm »
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On the cats back dogs back issue: Sometimes the stone behind the butcher shops gets pulled in the beginning, you replace it with some other nearby, and it lasts there until the endgame... In my setup I've been trying letting a dog there, and after it has to go for some reason, the second cat eventually gets there in time for the endgame... What I'm saying is: it's not obvious that the stone there will remain in first place, specially considering chessandgo's said "brutality" or whatever!! Smiley
 
How many candidates do we have so far, considering all options mentioned already??...
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jdb
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Re: Move 1
« Reply #19 on: Apr 12th, 2007, 2:53pm »
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Robinson and Petitprince used a non 99of9 setup in the postal tournament against chessandgo. One turned out ok and the other not so good.
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Janzert
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Re: Move 1
« Reply #20 on: Apr 12th, 2007, 3:50pm »
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I've been holding off to see what Chessandgo would open with before commenting, but after seeing it I guess it doesn't really doesn't change my feeling much.
 
I prefer the 99of9 setup. Cats back or dogs back is pretty much a toss up in my mind, but having golds dogs back makes me lean towards placing our cats back.
 
Janzert
 
P.S. here is a direct link to the game for anyone else that wants to bookmark it  
http://www.arimaa.com/arimaa/gameroom/opengamewin.cgi?gameid=61083&r ole=v&side=b
if you copy and paste, watch out for the space the forums seem to add into the middle of the word role
« Last Edit: Apr 12th, 2007, 3:51pm by Janzert » IP Logged
The_Jeh
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Re: Move 1
« Reply #21 on: Apr 12th, 2007, 3:51pm »
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Chessandgo's setup is 99of9 with a dog displaced in the back.  Fritzlein, you said that it's best not to put rabbits in the middle because they can be pulled up to the second file and hinder the movement of the camel.  Why isn't Chessandgo concerned over that?
« Last Edit: Apr 12th, 2007, 4:03pm by The_Jeh » IP Logged
JacquesB
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Re: Move 1
« Reply #22 on: Apr 12th, 2007, 4:00pm »
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For the voting notation please use standard Arimaa notation: 1w Ra2 Rb2 Mc2 Dd2 ... Only the setup move is a little long, but normal moves are treatable. Add clarifying remarks, but include the standard notation.
 
Many of us are not native English speakers and it may not be obvious that when you say "behind" you don't mean the same as "back".
 
About the camel in the middle: Pulling it in the 3rd move by gold means spending 4 steps (two of which directly contradict those made in the previous move). And that can be undone in 2 steps if the silver elephant was left in row 5 (which is a good place). Doing so, gold gives the initiative to silver for nothing. The argument is valid for other opening moves than the 3rd. Therefore, the camel is safe in the middle. If gold pulls it, he looses more than silver.
 
I am inclined for the "classic" setup with cc7 cf7.
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99of9
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Re: Move 1
« Reply #23 on: Apr 12th, 2007, 4:39pm »
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on Apr 12th, 2007, 8:01am, Fritzlein wrote:

Just so we are all speaking the same language: I think you are arguing for cats behind the traps.  This is the same as what other people are calling "dogs back", in reference to e8 and d8 on the back rank.

Oops, sorry for the confusion.  I usually use the same terminology as others, I just mistyped.
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Fritzlein
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Re: Move 1
« Reply #24 on: Apr 12th, 2007, 5:09pm »
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on Apr 12th, 2007, 3:51pm, The_Jeh wrote:
Fritzlein, you said that it's best not to put rabbits in the middle because they can be pulled up to the second file and hinder the movement of the camel.  Why isn't Chessandgo concerned over that?

Based on past games, I suspect chessandgo will not leave his d1 rabbit in the middle for long.  He intends to play (as part of his moves at some point in the opening) Hb2n Db1n Rc1w Rd1w.  He will eventually use four steps to end up at the same place as he would end up if he started with the 99of9 setup with dogs behind the traps, and then played the four steps Hb2n Dc2w Cd1n Cd2w.  Either way he gets his west wing into the same configuration.
 
Given that the final result is the same, and that it takes four steps to get there from the opening position, what is the point of chessandgo's move?  It is a tactical subtlety that he gets where he is going while the cat is behind the trap the whole time.  If the opening explodes into a race and we take over c3 before he does a rotation, then he loses a cat, not a dog.  If he had started with a dog behind the c3 trap, then we could have put our cats behind our traps and raced in the opening.  So if the rotation is completed, there is no difference, but chessandgo ends up better off due to the option of not completing the rotation.
 
I have tried to threaten chessandgo's central rabbit before he can get it to safety, but it is hopeless when he is Gold.  He doesn't have to move it until we get near, and then it is a simple matter to tuck it off to the side quickly.
 
In my postal tournament game against chessandgo, I have Gold, and he put the rabbit in the middle as Silver.  I thought I could harass either his camel or his central rabbit with elephant forward four, since he couldn't move both off to the side.  Indeed I induced him to move the central rabbit the wrong way, i.e. further into the center rather than off to the side.  We are a few moves removed from that, but I am taking days on my current move because I want to make sure I can safely threaten that rabbit (still in the center!) on my next move.  If I eventually pull his central rabbit with no harm coming to me, then I will have won the opening, and he might not put the rabbit in the center as Silver next time.  On the other hand, if it is too costly for me to chase his rabbit due to his counter-attacking, and I can't hurt his advanced pieces, then he will have won the opening by equalizing as Silver for no penalty.
 
Isn't it strange how the opening setup is still affecting play of that game?  I still think of my postal tournament game against chessandgo as a fight about the validity of his setup as Silver, although of course it is also a fight about our respective choices since then.
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99of9
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Re: Move 1
« Reply #25 on: Apr 12th, 2007, 5:17pm »
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I don't usually hide my camel behind a trap, but since that is a real possibility, I agree with people that placing a dog behind the camel side trap is a good idea.  So now I'm gunning for Fritz's second suggestion (one camel-side cat back, one dog back).
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RonWeasley
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Re: Move 1
« Reply #26 on: Apr 12th, 2007, 7:59pm »
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When I list votes, I plan to use standard arimaa notation, such as dc5w Cc4n ed2n Mc2w Ec3x.  Good point about the language barrier.  For the first move I will be descriptive but try to be unambiguous.
 
I don't plan to associate names with candidate moves.  I don't care about who has a good idea as much as what the idea is.
 
As to selecting candidates, I'm going to look for any move either forcefully advocated by at least one mobster or discussed positively by more than one.  I think I will list them in the forum about a day before setting up the vote so that mobsters can comment on the list.
 
Currently for move 1 I like both the two cats back and the one camel side cat back.
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NIC1138
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Re: Move 1
« Reply #27 on: Apr 12th, 2007, 9:06pm »
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on Apr 12th, 2007, 5:09pm, Fritzlein wrote:
Based on past games, I suspect chessandgo will not leave his d1 rabbit in the middle for long.  He intends to play (as part of his moves at some point in the opening) Hb2n Db1n Rc1w Rd1w.

Sorry, ::) but I went through most of his recent games, and he frequently used this same setup, and most of the times he started moving north the phant 3 times, and a horse 1 (looks like he prefers the horse on the other side, chosing the nearer one when he is gold, and the silver phant is on the other half......).  Other times he went north 4 with the elephant. Some others he went for a more "conservative" move.
 
Now, the middle rabbit spent the whole game in the same place in all the games I saw... It only moved forward, some times coerced. Could you post us a game where he "fixed" the rabbits to the corner??... ???
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Fritzlein
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Re: Move 1
« Reply #28 on: Apr 12th, 2007, 10:19pm »
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on Apr 12th, 2007, 9:06pm, NIC1138 wrote:
Now, the middle rabbit spent the whole game in the same place in all the games I saw... It only moved forward, some times coerced. Could you post us a game where he "fixed" the rabbits to the corner??... ???

In game 44247 against me, chessandgo tucked away the central rabbit rather than let me pull it.  In games 43717 and 46182 against me, he started with two back central rabbits and moved both out of the center when I threatened them.  In fact, I can't recall when chessandgo has ever let me pull a central rabbit in the opening.
 
On the other hand, I haven't played chessandgo very often recently, and in those few games I haven't tried to play against the central rabbit (until our present postal game).  Furthermore, although I try to look at all HvH games, sometimes I don't look or can't remember, so he might have changed his style recently, and/or he might play differently against different opponents.
 
In any case, I shouldn't state his intentions so confidently.  I should just say in my experience sidestepping seems to be chessandgo's response when one tries to threaten his central rabbit, which has led me to suspect that we won't get a chance to pull it in this game either.
 
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Fritzlein
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Re: Move 1
« Reply #29 on: Apr 12th, 2007, 10:29pm »
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on Apr 12th, 2007, 5:17pm, 99of9 wrote:
So now I'm gunning for Fritz's second suggestion (one camel-side cat back, one dog back).

That's interesting, because as I think about it more, I am leaning towards cat-behind-camel, dog-behind-elephant as my first choice, and the standard 99of9 setup with cats behind both traps as my second choice.  My first inclination (dogs behind traps) has slipped to third in my current ranking.  I wonder what I will feel like when voting days rolls around.  Tongue
 
My change of heart comes partly because I am not sure how much I like rotating the dog towards the flank after all.  When I take a horse hostage with my elephant, and try to pass it off to my camel, having an extra piece on that side just gets in the way of my camel crossing over.  There may be some utility in starting with back-central dogs and just leaving them there, out of the way!
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