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Topic: Move 1 (Read 15495 times) |
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The_Jeh
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Arimaa player #634
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Re: Move 1
« Reply #30 on: Apr 12th, 2007, 11:38pm » |
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With all the talk of Chessandgo's flexibility, it might be tempting to take his setup, turn it 180 degrees, and put it on our side. I am against this, however. Fritzlein, if you remember, you and I once experimented with copycat moves, and I think our unthorough research concluded it was detrimental to silver even if carried out for only three or four turns. Gold would be one move ahead, and silver would not be in a position to defend when it became unavoidable. I wouldn't want us to get into a copycatting mode. Besides, I think our setup options are just as good if not better than Chessandgo's.
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| « Last Edit: Apr 12th, 2007, 11:44pm by The_Jeh » |
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woh
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Re: Move 1
« Reply #31 on: Apr 13th, 2007, 6:24am » |
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on Apr 12th, 2007, 10:32am, Fritzlein wrote:
Code:
..x..x..
rhcemdhr
rrrdcrrr
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I use this setup in most of my games.
I like to believe that the sides are more balanced in that way.
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NIC1138
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Re: Move 1
« Reply #32 on: Apr 13th, 2007, 6:56am » |
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on Apr 13th, 2007, 6:24am, woh wrote:| I like to believe that the sides are more balanced in that way. |
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...And I am a strong advocate for assymmetry!! ;)
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NIC1138
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Re: Move 1
« Reply #33 on: Apr 13th, 2007, 8:08am » |
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on Apr 12th, 2007, 10:19pm, Fritzlein wrote:| he started with two back central rabbits and moved both out of the center when I threatened them. In fact, I can't recall when chessandgo has ever let me pull a central rabbit in the opening. |
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Well, mr. senator, not only those games are quite old, as you "confessed", but we are talking now about wether we agree on actually threatening those central rabbits!... Have we voted on this already?? ::)
I am pro-rabbit-pulling, but not as an opening strategy!... (as our antagonist seems to be)
In my last 5 games against him, I used my "non-standard" opening, four times as silver, and once as gold. In those four games he played gold, he used that same opening.
From those four, in the last three I responded with an opposite elephant. In the oldest,
http://arimaa.com/arimaa/games/jsShowGame.cgi?gid=49285&s=w
I put my elephant in the same side as him, and he answered blocking my phant from his usual exit (I believe he is the only player to see through my cunning plan lately). In this game we evolved into a horse-hostage at 4b, then I messed up in a careless camel-attack, and we ended up trading my camel for his horse. Please, do study that game and tell me if it was not a good start!...
Now, on the rabbits issue, on all the 5 games he never took the time to take the lonesome central rabbit from there. In this game
http://arimaa.com/arimaa/games/jsShowGame.cgi?gid=49719&s=w
He advances his rabbit at 8w and I eventually kill it at 14b.
On the only game I played against him as gold, I used my gouche set-up, and he responded in a very different way!... So, I must believe that
a_ Either he was experimenting with me, as Iīm a weaker player, or
b_ He actually doesnīt like something about my setup, and feels like having to open the game in a very different strategy. (At least playing as silver, I donīt know if in the 4 other games he felt like he should have started in that other fashion.)
As a weaker newbie player, Iīm asking us to join forces!!... I come here with my naïve childish spirit, ::) with my enthusiasm to experiment with new things, having suffered less blows from life then you, stronger players!... :'( I ask you, join with me with what I lack: the experience and expertise to avoid making silly camel-attacks!... The best contribution I can give to this game is suggesting something unusual at the opening, breaking the paradigms, forcing us both into different new dimensions where the playing ability is what counts!
Do consider this: Iīm proposing giving chessandgo an awkward opening he is not used to!... Isnīt this even one of the characteristics that make arimaa more challenging?? This is like a go championship some years ago when coreans came with an unusual opening, putting a stone in the middle of the board!... :)
I gave you some stong evidence that there might be something on this opening that he doesnīt like, and that we could have a nice start, like with that horse-hostage. Camel is protected, rabbits are protected, I look for cats behind the traps on endgame... All my arguments are on the table, all I can ask now is for you to consider the possibility, perhaps trying to play with it a bit!... Hereīs the advertise!
Code:
RRRDRRDR
DHCEMCHR
..k..k..
........
........
..k..k..
rheddchm
rrcrrrrr
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2w: Ee2n Ee3n Ee4e Ef4n
Finally, I would also prefer any other openings where he feels like doing something different from charging the phant north, or coming with a horse on the side. Letīs not let the man comfortable!!...
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Fritzlein
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Re: Move 1
« Reply #34 on: Apr 13th, 2007, 8:30am » |
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on Apr 13th, 2007, 8:08am, NIC1138 wrote:
In that game, on 8w, advancing the rabbit was a way for chessandgo to insure that he would win your cat for his rabbit. To me it looks like a tactical theme, not a strategic one, which is to say he might not have advanced the rabbit except for immediate material gain. Also, in your earlier example, he advanced his central rabbit only after winning camel for horse. Although I am a defensive player, I, too, may start advancing rabbits if I am up a camel for a horse, because when the other player has no camel, more aggressive attacking becomes strategically sound. Thus these examples don't persuade me that chessandgo intends to advance his central rabbit in the opening, or even leave it in the center if we threaten it.
As to whether we should play usual or unusual moves, that is a question of taste. As the Romans used to say, "of taste, there is no arguing". I am Mr. Boring, but I won't be upset if you can convince a majority of voters to play something exciting. I expect the game to be fun and well-played regardless of the style.
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NIC1138
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Re: Move 1
« Reply #35 on: Apr 13th, 2007, 9:32am » |
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on Apr 13th, 2007, 8:30am, Fritzlein wrote:| In that game, on 8w, advancing the rabbit was a way for chessandgo to insure that he would win your cat for his rabbit. |
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Hmmm not quite sure. He was saving his camel. He could have advanced his horse and cat to unfreeze it, in two different ways, or even protected the slaughter house with his phant and still hold my cat with his horse (but he wouldnīt do that because he was actually aiming for my unprotected camel... He eventually won the game on that corner of the board he took. :( )
I donīt actually believe he would advance this central rabbit on a postal vs. Mob game. But I canīt go on saying this, it ruins my own rhetoric strategy in the political game we are playing here! :)
On that game I played silver he also uses the central rabbit to unfreeze his camel... You are saying he would be playing differently if he were feeling less confident??...
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NIC1138
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Re: Move 1
« Reply #36 on: Apr 13th, 2007, 9:37am » |
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Perhaps we should vote on a more general strategy decision right now, to go on deciding the complete lay-out afterwards. Are we in for an lone-E attack, E-H (me!), E-H-H, or something much more defensive, perhaps?...
For example, are we going to put our elephant on the same half as he, or reverse? This one is a binary decision, we donīt even need Condorcet! 
This could be a good first voting:
E attack
E-H attack
EHH attack
EHM attack
defensive maneuvers
Itīs more than natural that we do two elections on the opening scheme, since the possibilities are much numerous than during game! (at least I guess so...)
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jdb
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Re: Move 1
« Reply #37 on: Apr 13th, 2007, 10:12am » |
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The setup Seanick used in game 49571 looks playable.
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RonWeasley
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Re: Move 1
« Reply #38 on: Apr 13th, 2007, 12:14pm » |
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On overall strategy, we need to be ready to change to take advantage of any opportunities. This may change move by move. So far, the 99of9 setup has been successfully flexible. I'm not in favor of an unusual setup here because chessandgo is a great tactician and may find a forced butt-kicking maneuver.
As far as candidate lists of moves or other issues we might vote on, after my last post I realized that it would be helpful to me (as Head Boy) if any mobster who thinks the list is settled to go ahead and write out the list. This way everybody isn't waiting for me to do it when it's obvious to most of the Mob. This would be a big help and could speed up the discussion. Please don't feel like there's some social slight in doing this! I will still be in charge of setting up the actual votes. By the way, even though I don't support choosing a strategy on move 1, thinking about it is a great suggestion. Thanx NIC1138!
For move 1 we are just about there. I have 12 mobsters on my list. Anybody want to list the candidates so far?
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Janzert
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Re: Move 1
« Reply #39 on: Apr 13th, 2007, 12:45pm » |
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Seeing as this is going to be a rather long lasting game, I think I'd rather stick with a well tried setup rather than experiment with a new one.
Anyway here are the proposals I see so far, with c&g's opening move being:
1w Ra1 Db1 Rc1 Rd1 De1 Rf1 Rg1 Rh1 Ra2 Hb2 Cc2 Md2 Ee2 Cf2 Hg2 Rh2
99of9 with dogs back:
1b ra8 rb8 rc8 dd8 de8 rf8 rg8 rh8 ra7 hb7 cc7 ed7 me7 cf7 hg7 rh7
99of9 with cats back:
1b ra8 rb8 rc8 cd8 ce8 rf8 rg8 rh8 ra7 hb7 dc7 ed7 me7 df7 hg7 rh7
99of9 with camel side cat back, elephant side dog back:
1b ra8 rb8 rc8 dd8 ce8 rf8 rg8 rh8 ra7 hb7 cc7 ed7 me7 df7 hg7 rh7
NIC1138:
1b ra8 rb8 rc8 rd8 re8 cf8 rg8 rh8 ma7 hb7 cc7 dd7 de7 ef7 hg7 rh7
Seanick from 49571:
1b ra8 rb8 rc8 cd8 de8 rf8 rg8 rh8 ra7 hb7 mc7 ed7 ce7 df7 hg7 rh7
Sorry if I missed any or typed them in wrong.
Janzert
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| « Last Edit: Apr 13th, 2007, 12:47pm by Janzert » |
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Fritzlein
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Re: Move 1
« Reply #40 on: Apr 13th, 2007, 5:48pm » |
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Gosh, when you put it that way, I guess I'm ready to vote among those five options. I'm itching to start beating up our opponent. On the other hand, if we have five more days, it is much wiser to have the election span the last two days than span all five days. I suppose pushing for an early vote will only be appropriate if we have dipped into our reserve and would like to build it back up again. I can be patient if I have to. [sigh]
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RonWeasley
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Re: Move 1
« Reply #41 on: Apr 13th, 2007, 8:22pm » |
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I'd like to start the voting Monday.
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NIC1138
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Re: Move 1
« Reply #42 on: Apr 13th, 2007, 9:54pm » |
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on Apr 13th, 2007, 10:12am, jdb wrote:| The setup Seanick used in game 49571 looks playable. |
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Continuing the extremely deep, wide, large, profound, wondrous and empty and pointless discussion on chessandgoīs central rabbit, in this game he actually dodged when threatened by an elephant, but went to the other central house, at 5w. At 26w he advanced the hare in question...
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NIC1138
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Re: Move 1
« Reply #43 on: Apr 13th, 2007, 10:42pm » |
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on Apr 13th, 2007, 12:14pm, RonWeasley wrote:| By the way, even though I don't support choosing a strategy on move 1, thinking about it is a great suggestion. |
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The idea is just that most initial setups are already aiming for some kind of initial attack... If we decide on the "general", then we can vote on subtleties like the 4 possible cat/dog, or the 3 possible horse/camel permutations...
Iīm not proposing to chose on long-term strategies like "strictly hard-core rabbit pulling", or "capturing whatever īofficerī stone we can" or, I dunno, "swarming"... I would just like to decide on what we expect would be our next move. I personally canīt lay out the stones without imagining one ot two possible moves to do next!
If we decide on E-H-H, for example, like in that Seanick game, the setup already starts to get defined, and we can move on to decide on smaller aspects...
Or we could already decide, for example, on the rabbits:
1_ All back, in the first line (very unusual... we would call this a "zebra" candidate, in Brazil!  )
2_ Two ahead on corners, with a hole in the center (is that a necessary and sufficient condition to the so-called 99of9 setup??)
3_ Two ahead on corners, little lemon twist in the center (chessandgo) (( a.k.a. "the old switcheroo"! ))
4_ Two ahead, together in a corner (Iīve seen this sometimes)
5_ One ahead on corner, hole behind a kill house (my own)
6_ All in front line (hard-core chess player)
7_ 
I would like to vote on this, to stop preaching for my bizarre setup already, and perhaps start some more "mainstream" contributions! :]
Is there actually any chance option 2 would not get chosen?... Can we decide this already here on the forum perhaps??...
Another interesting option would be voting for symmetrical vs. assymmetrical and oposite vs in-the-same-side elephant... AFAIK, most people have pretty strong opinions about these "general" characteristics Iīm saying... Or is there any chance each of the 4 combinations between these 2 variables have a single candidate that should run against candidates of the other "parties"??...
Are we going to determine the largest party first, to chose a candidate inside it, or pick the best candidate from each party, and make them run against each other? Can we vote on this?? 
(Now, is there a wikibook entry about "THE 99of9 setup" that I can read afterall?? I didnīt knew it was so widespread!... Iīm a completely jazzy / hippie / zen / go-with-the-flow player!  Never took the time to look deeply into "stabilished" things like that!...)
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99of9
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Re: Move 1
« Reply #44 on: Apr 13th, 2007, 11:01pm » |
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You are right that all setups impose limitations on the types of strategy that are possible.
For example, if anyone wants to do an EHH attack, they should NOT setup with the 99of9 setup (defined here: http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Arimaa/Introduction_to_Strategy/Intial_Piec e_Placement).
However the 99of9 setup is quite flexible, and allows for Lone-E, and EH attacks on both wings. More importantly it was designed explicitly to be solid against all types of attack. Even if we want to play aggressively, solid defence will nearly always be required.
In my opinion the silver players must concentrate even more on good defensive structure, because we are one move down, and chessandgo's elephant will soon be near our backline.
All the discussion about cat-dog switching variants is a relatively subtle point, and I think everyone would agree it doesn't make much difference, but we are aiming to do the best we can do.
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