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Topic: Move 1 (Read 16179 times) |
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The_Jeh
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Re: Move 1
« Reply #45 on: Apr 13th, 2007, 11:34pm » |
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A vote for a move is also a vote for all that results from it, including the strategies it makes possible. So in a sense, your desire to vote on a strategy is already taking place, NIC1138. Unless we start censoring (heaven forbid) the aberrant, voting on a strategy will have no effect, as it doesn't change the actual state of the game.
If we agree with the strategies you present to us, we will vote for the moves that complement them in the best way.
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JacquesB
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Re: Move 1
« Reply #46 on: Apr 14th, 2007, 3:17pm » |
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I think most people is with the 99of9 setup.
Another reason in favor is: It is a "classic". I think this game is a place to experiment a new decision procedure that had never been done before. It is not the place to experiment strategies. It is way too slow and costs too much effort to make the whole thing fail because we tried something "too new". I don't want to sound as if I didn't like experimenting. I do, I love it, but not in this game.
Many of us (and probably more as new people joins) are weak players who want to learn "how the minds of the masters work". After the game, a selection of the best analysis posts move by move can make a good wikibook. AFAIK, the first Arimaa commented games book.
Maybe the 2018 APLWC (Arimaa Professional League World Champion) learned the game with this wikibook. ... 
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NIC1138
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Re: Move 1
« Reply #47 on: Apr 14th, 2007, 3:28pm » |
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on Apr 14th, 2007, 3:17pm, JacquesB wrote:| I don't want to sound as if I didn't like experimenting. I do, I love it, but not in this game. |
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If we vote in that list up there, we might be surprised by the outcome a Condorcet election might give us... Suppose my rhetoric subterfuges actually appeal to your "inner elephant", and I actually convince some people that they should vote for "me". It could happen that many people vote for one of the 99o9 setups (between the cat / dog different arrangements), and in my proposal in second place, just to feel like "well, I also like experimenting"... If many people do this, chosing between the similar 99/9 setups, my crackpot lay-out might come out as a winner! 
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RonWeasley
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Re: Move 1
« Reply #48 on: Apr 14th, 2007, 7:09pm » |
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Occasionally I have expressed a desire for a collection of annotated master games. I really like the wikibook idea. This game and some in the past that have been annotated in the comment section would be a great resource for new and intermediate players.
Many games from the first owl (postal) tournament are commented.
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The_Jeh
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Arimaa player #634
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Re: Move 1
« Reply #49 on: Apr 15th, 2007, 12:27am » |
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I have updated the "About This Game" thread to more accurately describe the intent of this game. JacquesB is right. This game is not for haphazard experimentation of new ideas. It is for bringing together all that we have learned over the years to play the best game of Arimaa ever and bring the World Champion to his knees. I term this game "experimental" because an organization of this type has never been tried before.
By the way, I think I am ready to vote. Janzert's list looks complete. Did you say voting happens on Monday? When do the polls close?
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| « Last Edit: Apr 15th, 2007, 12:38am by The_Jeh » |
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Fritzlein
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Re: Move 1
« Reply #50 on: Apr 15th, 2007, 11:54am » |
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on Apr 15th, 2007, 12:27am, The_Jeh wrote:| I have updated the "About This Game" thread to more accurately describe the intent of this game. |
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Heheh. My intent is to cooperatively find the best possible move, whether it is old or new, passive or aggressive, boring or exciting. Games are the most rewarding when they are played to win. Furthermore, I think this particular game could especially benefit the Arimaa community by encouraging an exchange of strategic ideas and collective analysis.
That said, one of the funny things about democracy is that it becomes whatever the voters want it to be. As soon as a majority of voters decides that this game is about making a big "W" out of our rabbits, then that's what the game is about. There's no way to have a democracy and also keep things predictable. You just have to ride the wave. :)
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The_Jeh
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Re: Move 1
« Reply #51 on: Apr 15th, 2007, 5:02pm » |
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Well said. My intent is the same as yours. I guess I'm wasting server space when I campaign for a whatever-it-takes-to-win attitude, because I'm sure most people are thinking the same way.
I hope Chessandgo doesn't feel too left out. He could have a lot of catching-up to do if we do discover something in the process.
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| « Last Edit: Apr 15th, 2007, 5:12pm by The_Jeh » |
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RonWeasley
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Re: Move 1
« Reply #52 on: Apr 16th, 2007, 8:15am » |
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The voting has begun. I have 14 voters registered. If you didn't get an e-mail and would still like to vote (jdb?), send your e-mail address to my muggle friend (in the About Topic) and you can be added to the list of voters, even for this move. I voted and it appears to be working. If I see all votes cast before end of day Tuesday, I will just stop the election and make the move. If we get fewer than 10 voters by end of Tuesday, I will give it more time.
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IdahoEv
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Re: Move 1
« Reply #53 on: Apr 17th, 2007, 2:18pm » |
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on Apr 15th, 2007, 11:54am, Fritzlein wrote:| As soon as a majority of voters decides that this game is about making a big "W" out of our rabbits, then that's what the game is about. |
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I suspect chessandgo might put a crimp in that plan.
I voted.
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NIC1138
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Re: Move 1
« Reply #54 on: Apr 17th, 2007, 7:42pm » |
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I voted allright.... Pity I haven't been able to log in propely these days!... I did't quite like that my proposal ran in the "same level" of the others... I would rather have had a "different rabbit lay-out, and further discussion" option.
I do understand that the 99o9 lay-out seems a popular choice, and voting already on the subtleties saves our time... But if we were going to take my proposal seriously, all its subtle similar lay-outs should have ran together!!... You picked a specific version of my setup, when it should have been a "general" one, as we have considered 3 versions o the "general" 99o9 setup. Also if anybody else would like to vote on a non-99o9 setup, all he has is the 99o9-esque setup from seanick, or that specific setup of mine.
So, my specific ideology ran representing all the "pariahs of openings", all the "alternative" openings, as if an american communist voter would like to vote for Perot or Ralph Nader just because they are neither republicans or democrats!... That's de-mock-racy!!! Please, on the next Mob game, let's have a little more complex ballot for the opening!... (not that I do believe it will make much of a difference)
I promess that in the next moves I won't make more rhetoric political intense speeches!...  And thanks for putting me in the ballot, by the way!
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Janzert
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Re: Move 1
« Reply #55 on: Apr 18th, 2007, 12:29am » |
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on Apr 17th, 2007, 7:42pm, NIC1138 wrote:| But if we were going to take my proposal seriously, all its subtle similar lay-outs should have ran together!!... You picked a specific version of my setup, when it should have been a "general" one, as we have considered 3 versions o the "general" 99o9 setup. Also if anybody else would like to vote on a non-99o9 setup, all he has is the 99o9-esque setup from seanick, or that specific setup of mine. |
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Sorry when I made the list up I only saw one specific layout that you proposed (although mirror imaged to begin with, I assume that was changed just to match the side c&g ended up with his elephant on). Had I seen more specific proposals I would have been happy to add more to the list and certainly I hope you would feel free to post your own list if you wanted to.
Janzert
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RonWeasley
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Re: Move 1
« Reply #56 on: Apr 18th, 2007, 7:39am » |
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Mob rule has chosen the one cat, one dog back formation! 15 voters registered and all 15 voted. Only 2 voters waited until the last day.
I will try to enter some trash talk into the game chat this week.
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Fritzlein
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Re: Move 1
« Reply #57 on: Apr 18th, 2007, 9:16am » |
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Wow, 15 voters! That's a fantastic start. I wonder if we can keep up that level of participation. It won't be long before the main discussion is not about minor variations of a consensus strategy, but rather about sharply differing strategies. Our setup is flexible enough to allow all sorts of attack and defense, but what would we prefer to do? The most fundamental is: Would we rather launch some form of an EH attack or defend against some form of an EH attack?
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Fritzlein
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Re: Move 1
« Reply #58 on: Apr 18th, 2007, 1:43pm » |
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For historical interest, we should record the voting preferences:
1. 99of9 with camel side cat back, elephant side dog back: 1b ra8 rb8 rc8 dd8 ce8 rf8 rg8 rh8 ra7 hb7 cc7 ed7 me7 df7 hg7 rh7
2. 99of9 with dogs back: 1b ra8 rb8 rc8 dd8 de8 rf8 rg8 rh8 ra7 hb7 cc7 ed7 me7 cf7 hg7 rh7
3. 99of9 with cats back: 1b ra8 rb8 rc8 cd8 ce8 rf8 rg8 rh8 ra7 hb7 dc7 ed7 me7 df7 hg7 rh7
4. Seanick from 49571: 1b ra8 rb8 rc8 cd8 de8 rf8 rg8 rh8 ra7 hb7 mc7 ed7 ce7 df7 hg7 rh7
5. NIC1138: 1b ra8 rb8 rc8 rd8 re8 cf8 rg8 rh8 ma7 hb7 cc7 dd7 de7 ef7 hg7 rh7
1. 2. 3. 4. 5.
1. - 8 6 11 12
2. 6 - 9 12 13
3. 5 5 - 12 13
4. 2 2 2 - 8
5. 1 1 1 3 -
It was a close three-way race between cats back, dogs back, and one of each. NIC, I am sorry to say that if we had voted first between "Some kind of 99of9" and "Something Else", then "Something Else" would have lost by approximately 2 to 12.
The beauty of Condorcet voting, however, is that we don't need multiple layers of voting. We can put in as many alternatives as we like, and vote on all of them at the same time.
We have no idea how many voters really preferred Nader over Gore and Bush, because we didn't have preferential voting, so most considered they would be throwing away their vote on Nader. With Condorcet voting, introducing more candidates doesn't upset the balance, and everyone can vote for their true preference. Furthermore, with a complete result matrix, you can see all the preferences. It didn't matter that there were three versions of 99of9: we can see that each non-99of9 setup would have lost to each 99of9 setup. Adding more non-99of9 setups would have shown this in more ways, that's all.
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NIC1138
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Re: Move 1
« Reply #59 on: Apr 18th, 2007, 10:42pm » |
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on Apr 18th, 2007, 1:43pm, Fritzlein wrote:It was a close three-way race between cats back, dogs back, and one of each.
NIC, I am sorry to say that if we had voted first between "Some kind of 99of9"
and "Something Else", then "Something Else" would have lost by approximately 2
to 12. |
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I don't like to "kick the dead dog", but that's exactly the point of what I was
saying! It not right to make my lay-out proposal stand for "any other non-99o9
setup". My setup was a specific one. It might have been the case that a voter
didn't want to propose anything, but didn't like the 99of9 setup... But that's
no reason to vote for mine!...
Quote:The beauty of Condorcet voting, however, is that we don't need multiple
layers of voting. We can put in as many alternatives as we like, and vote on
all of them at the same time. |
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Sure, but it can start to get messy!... We could have put all the possible
x^n!/Gamma(17) openings in the ballot, but who would like to go through all the list to
select all the possible 2*(3*(5*4)) 99o9-like setups with horses on the sides over my
crackpot proposals, for example? (this number is exact! )
To be absolutely "democratic", we would need this whole-world ballot. Since
it's counter-productive, we need to introduce the "layers" you mentioned. Each
time we vote in a layer, we prune out some trees of possibilities. We can speed
up the process already presenting one of the branches in "expanded" form,
presenting subtleties of the branch we believe would already win in a
"higher-level" voting.
I don't think this will be needed in the rest of the match (let's see), just
the "forum filtering" should be OK, but I think it would have been much more
fun to see a more complicated ballot in the opening.
Quote:It didn't matter that there were three versions of 99of9: we can see that each non-99of9 setup would have lost to each 99of9 setup. Adding more non-99of9 setups would have shown this in more ways, that's all.
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That if the concept a 99of9 setup is not related just to rabbits, and excludes
bad ideas as putting your elephant in the center, ahead of your opponent's, or
putting the horses in the back line, or you elephant and camel in the back
line... These characteristics would sure make a voter kick down those
candidates.
It might be obvious in that cases, but If we study many options, I'm sure we
would find a gray area where alternatives to the 99of9 a.k.a. "scary bunnies"
setup might not look so bad (as chessandgo's own setup). Of couse I don't
propose us to do a big study like that in a real-world like now.
Making a poll like this might even be a way to define the 99of9 setup concept!!
In a presidential campaing we never have an option like "somebody else". But
some naïve people (here in Brazil at least) like the idea, and even advocate
that we should have something like that in our elections. I counter the idea
for political elections, but for an arimaa game opening I think it fits!... And it
would have brought a great legitimacy to the still uncertain "forum-picked options" process!
Don't get me wrong, guys, I'm totally sactisfied with the elections!!...  I do
hope tough that I can appeal to your feelings, and we can see something more
flexible in the next mob game opening ballot!... The only reason I'm spending so
much time on the subject is that I'm aiming the discussion to imagine how would
it be an A.I. program deciding moves based on this election scheme! 
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