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mdk
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Re: Move 15
« Reply #15 on: Oct 10th, 2007, 12:34am »
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I finally found a bit of time so I'll try and throw something out there against the move that Fritz currently supports. (not because I necessarily think that another move is better–I really haven't looked at the position enough to decide–or because it is the move Fritz supports, but because but I figure some discussion on the move that prior to my comment would probably win can't hurt).  
 
15b ha6s ha5s ha4s ed4w  
.    16w Ee5w Ed5n mc5e Dc3e
 
How do we respond?
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99of9
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Re: Move 15e
« Reply #16 on: Oct 10th, 2007, 6:38am »
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on Oct 10th, 2007, 12:34am, mdk wrote:

15b ha6s ha5s ha4s ed4w  
.    16w Ee5w Ed5n mc5e Dc3e
 
How do we respond?

.    .    16b rb4w ec4e md5w ed4n
I think we end up looking quite good.  I like having the threat on a new rabbit.  So far I'm happy with this, but I haven't looked at the other alternatives yet.
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99of9
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Re: Move 15
« Reply #17 on: Oct 10th, 2007, 6:56am »
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on Oct 9th, 2007, 5:33pm, UruramTururam wrote:

15b ed4w rb4w ec4w Dc3n ?! <-= The more I look at it the more I like it!
 
Surely C&G may try to swap his horse and dog again and ad mortam defecatem as that's us who are to repeat the position.
 
But what if he really plays:
16w Hb3e Dc3w Db4s ra4e ?

I can't understand what you both mean by swapping horse and dog.  And I really don't understand Urarum's move 16w... it looks illegal to me.  Can you check it?
 
Were you both talking about the move:
15b ed4w rb4w ec4e Dc3n
Huh
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Fritzlein
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Re: Move 15
« Reply #18 on: Oct 10th, 2007, 9:12am »
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on Oct 10th, 2007, 6:56am, 99of9 wrote:
Were you both talking about the move:
15b ed4w rb4w ec4e Dc3n
Huh

Yep, that's the move I was talking about.  I thought it was pointless to examine, because
 
15b ed4w rb4w ec4e Dc3n
16w Hb3e Dc4w Db4s ra4e
16b ed4w rb4w ec4e Hc3n
17w Db3e Hc4w Hb4s ra4e
17b ed4w rb4w ec4e Dc3n
18w Hb3e Dc4w Db4s ra4e
18b ed4w rb4w ec4e Hc3n
 
and Silver loses by repetition.  So we have to deviate anyway, and why not now?  But thanks to UruramTururam, I see that 16w is weak for chessandgo, because it makes arimaa_master's suggested move all the more powerful:
 
15b ed4w rb4w ec4e Dc3n
16w Hb3e Dc4w Db4s ra4e
16b ha6s ha5s ha4s ed4w
 
So "playing merry-go-round with the horse and dog" is not a good option for chessandgo.  On the other other hand, I have come to think that 15w by chessandgo was an inaccuracy, and this 15b merely gives him a second chance to play what he should have played the first time:
 
15b ed4w rb4w ec4e Dc3n
16w Hb3n Dc4s Hb4s Ee5w
 
which would rule out our horse charge.  So I needed to give 15b ed4w rb4w ec4e Dc3n more thought than I had, but not much more.  Also, perhaps we should take the typo 15b ed4w rb4w ec4w Dc3n seriously, but after
 
15b ed4w rb4w ec4w Dc3n
16w Ee5w Ed5n mc5e
 
it seems we have to waste too much time defending our camel.  So I don't like the typo move much either
 
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Re: Move 15
« Reply #19 on: Oct 10th, 2007, 9:30am »
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on Oct 10th, 2007, 12:34am, mdk wrote:
but I figure some discussion on the move that prior to my comment would probably win can't hurt).

Very true.
 
Quote:
15b ha6s ha5s ha4s ed4w  
.    16w Ee5w Ed5n mc5e Dc3e
 
How do we respond?

I don't see anything better than 99of9's response, but 16b rb4w ec4e md5w ed4n does bring out the point that our exposed rabbit needs the a4 square for safety and our horse needs the a4 square to pull a rabbit through.  Playing forward a bit, I find it tricky to ever get that a2 rabbit pulled or otherwise realize much advantage after 17w Ed6e Ee6s Ee5s Ee4w.
 
So I'm going to flip-flop to 15b ed4w ec4e Dc3n ha6s as my new favorite.  It isn't obviously better strategically, but it seems to have the advantage of being more tactically forcing, due to the immediate threat to chessandgo's dog.
 
See, I told you I could easily be convinced!
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mdk
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Re: Move 15
« Reply #20 on: Oct 10th, 2007, 4:14pm »
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on Oct 10th, 2007, 9:30am, Fritzlein wrote:

Very true.
 
I don't see anything better than 99of9's response, but 16b rb4w ec4e md5w ed4n does bring out the point that our exposed rabbit needs the a4 square for safety and our horse needs the a4 square to pull a rabbit through.  Playing forward a bit, I find it tricky to ever get that a2 rabbit pulled or otherwise realize much advantage after 17w Ed6e Ee6s Ee5s Ee4w.
 
So I'm going to flip-flop to 15b ed4w ec4e Dc3n ha6s as my new favorite.  It isn't obviously better strategically, but it seems to have the advantage of being more tactically forcing, due to the immediate threat to chessandgo's dog.
 
See, I told you I could easily be convinced!

 
I'm glad to see some more discussion in the mob. I really wish I had more time to contribute. But with the time I have let me ask how do we continue after:
15b ed4w ec4e Dc3n ha6s
.    16w Ee5w Hb3w rb4s Ra2e
« Last Edit: Oct 10th, 2007, 4:15pm by mdk » IP Logged
Fritzlein
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Re: Move 15
« Reply #21 on: Oct 10th, 2007, 6:52pm »
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on Oct 10th, 2007, 4:14pm, mdk wrote:
But with the time I have let me ask how do we continue after:
15b ed4w ec4e Dc3n ha6s
.    16w Ee5w Hb3w rb4s Ra2e

If he is going to give us the b3 square, I'm very temped to take it:
 
15b ed4w ec4e Dc3n ha6s
.    16w Ee5w Hb3e rb4s Ra2e
.    .    16b ha5s ha4e rb3w hb4s
 
But if that doesn't work, I'll bet pushing our rabbit to a2 does work:
 
15b ed4w ec4e Dc3n ha6s
.    16w Ee5w Hb3e rb4s Ra2e
.    .    16b ha5e hb5s rb3w ra3s
 
From the latter line alone, I'm not scared of the proposed 16w, and I stand by 15b ed4w ec4e Dc3n ha6s as my current favorite.
« Last Edit: Oct 10th, 2007, 10:52pm by Fritzlein » IP Logged

mdk
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Re: Move 15
« Reply #22 on: Oct 10th, 2007, 9:27pm »
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on Oct 10th, 2007, 6:52pm, Fritzlein wrote:

If he is going to give us the b3 square, I'm very temped to take it:
 
15b ed4w ec4e Dc3n ha6s
.    16w Ee5w Hb3e rb4s Ra2e
.    .    16b ha5s ha4e rb3w hb4s
 
But if that doesn't work, I'll bet pushing our rabbit to a2 does work:
 
15b ed4w ec4e Dc3n ha6s
.    16w Ee5w Hb3e rb4s Ra2e
.    .    16b ha5e hb5s rb3w ra3s
 
From the latter line alone, I'm not sacred of the proposed 16w, and I stand by 15b ed4w ec4e Dc3n ha6s as my current favorite.

 
You misread my proposed 16w
15b ed4w ec4e Dc3n ha6s
.    16w Ee5w Hb3w rb4s Ra2e
 
Second step Hb3w... you responded to Hb3e
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Fritzlein
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Re: Move 15
« Reply #23 on: Oct 10th, 2007, 11:10pm »
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on Oct 10th, 2007, 9:27pm, mdk wrote:
You misread my proposed 16w
15b ed4w ec4e Dc3n ha6s
.    16w Ee5w Hb3w rb4s Ra2e
 
Second step Hb3w... you responded to Hb3e

Ah, sorry.  I should be more careful.  I did wonder that you would propose a move so easily refuted. Wink  Of course your actual proposal is strong.
 
Anyway, in the following line
 
15b ed4w ec4e Dc3n ha6s
.   16w Ee5w Hb3w rb4s Ra2e
.   .   16b Dc4w ed4w ha5s dd8s
 
Do we not still clearly stand better?  Gold has made progress in framing our rabbit, but in the process left his dog very exposed.  I think we are happy to just trade rabbits if we have to, as long as we emerge with a dog hostage.  I realize this is just a vague strategic answer, but I'm not sure what you had in mind as a plan for Gold after your proposed 16w.
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Re: Move 15
« Reply #24 on: Oct 10th, 2007, 11:26pm »
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on Oct 10th, 2007, 11:10pm, Fritzlein wrote:

Ah, sorry.  I should be more careful.  I did wonder that you would propose a move so easily refuted. Wink  Of course your actual proposal is strong.
 
Anyway, in the following line
 
15b ed4w ec4e Dc3n ha6s
.   16w Ee5w Hb3w rb4s Ra2e
.   .   16b Dc4w ed4w ha5s dd8s
 
Do we not still clearly stand better?  Gold has made progress in framing our rabbit, but in the process left his dog very exposed.  I think we are happy to just trade rabbits if we have to, as long as we emerge with a dog hostage.  I realize this is just a vague strategic answer, but I'm not sure what you had in mind as a plan for Gold after your proposed 16w.

 
To be completely honest I wasn't completely sure what I had in mind either. but it seemed to look approach the position from a different perspective so I figured it was at least worth looking at. And no one else is suggesting possible refutations for gold so I figured I should suggest the best unmentioned response for gold I could find.
 
Before we completely stop analyzing, here is my suggested line for gold:
 
15b ed4w ec4e Dc3n ha6s
.   16w Ee5w Hb3w rb4s Ra2e
.   .   16b Dc4w ed4w ha5s dd8s
.   .    .    17w Ed5n mc5e rb3e Ha3e
« Last Edit: Oct 10th, 2007, 11:52pm by mdk » IP Logged
jdb
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Re: Move 15
« Reply #25 on: Oct 11th, 2007, 5:48am »
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How about trying to go after the c3 trap:
 
15b mc5s rb4w mc4w Dc3n
.   16w Ee5w Ed4w Dc4s Ec5w  
.   .   16b Hb3s mb4s ra4s ed4s  
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Re: Move 15
« Reply #26 on: Oct 11th, 2007, 11:54am »
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Looking at jdb's suggestion, the a3 rabbit enables silver to swap out the camel for the horse to get the E-H.  If gold tries for a camel hostage, I think silver can capture the eventual c2 dog.  Somebody else should check this to see if gold can get a clean camel hostage.  If this gets us an E-H, it seems the most threatening plan, beginning with the capture of the h5 rabbit.
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Re: Move 15
« Reply #27 on: Oct 11th, 2007, 12:01pm »
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I don't think gold can get a camel hostage, but there are alot of variations, and one little oversight could be critical.  
 
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Fritzlein
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Re: Move 15
« Reply #28 on: Oct 16th, 2007, 6:52pm »
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on Oct 10th, 2007, 11:26pm, mdk wrote:
Before we completely stop analyzing, here is my suggested line for gold:
 
15b ed4w ec4e Dc3n ha6s
.   16w Ee5w Hb3w rb4s Ra2e
.   .   16b Dc4w ed4w ha5s dd8s
.   .    .    17w Ed5n mc5e rb3e Ha3e

On further examination of mdk's suggestion, my previous favorite move 15b ed4w ec4e Dc3n ha6s doesn't look as good to me as I first thought.  The threats to our rabbit and camel are just as strong as our threat to his dog, if not stronger.  One trouble is that we may end up with our rabbit framed on c3 pinning our elephant on c4 instead of d3.  When our elephant is pinned on the wrong square, and we try to win chessandgo's h5-rabbit, he can fork our rabbit between his two traps, and we only get a rabbit trade out of it.  Still, 16b ha5e Dc4w mc5s ed4s seems to offer nice attacking possibilities in this line, so mdk's 16w is not (yet) a refutation in my book.
 
on Oct 11th, 2007, 5:48am, jdb wrote:
How about trying to go after the c3 trap:
 
15b mc5s rb4w mc4w Dc3n
.   16w Ee5w Ed4w Dc4s Ec5w  
.   .   16b Hb3s mb4s ra4s ed4s

After looking at JDB's suggested camel attack with 16b Hb3s mb4s ra4s ed4s, I think it leaves us clearly better, so much so that I feel chessandgo must deviate with 16w Ee5w Ed5w Ec5w Ra2n.  His rabbit advance is a strategic concession, but is also genuinely threatens a camel hostage, so we have to waste time retreating.  In my main line we end up with a small but meaningful positional advantage, so I have promoted 15b mc5s rb4w mc4w Dc3n into my top two.
 
Arimaa_master's move 15b ha6s ha5s ha4s ed4w needed another look given my demotion of my top move, but I couldn't get more than a slight plus after mdk's suggested response.  This drops it to third on my list, with two ways of pulling the dog in a virtual tie for first.
 
In summary, I have to retract my criticism of chessandgo's 15w.  The threat to our rabbit is significant, so it is hard to call it inaccurate that he pulled it.
 
Please pardon any typos in the new analysis.  I did it over a chess board, so cutting and pasting moves from the interface was not an option.
 

15b ed4w ec4e Dc3n ha6s
.    16w Ee5w Hb3w rb4s Ra2e
.    .    16b ha5e Dc4w mc5s ed4s
.    .    .    17w rb3e Ha3e Ed5w md2s
.    .    .    .    17b Db4w mc4w Hb3w mcb4s
.    .    .    .    .    18w Ec5s Ec4w Md1n De2n
.    .    .    .    .    .    18b Ha3s mb3w Da4n ma3n
.    .    .    .    .    .    .    19w Eb4s Eb3w Ea3e ma4s
.    .    .    .    .    .    .    .    19b hb5n hb6w ha6e Da5n (+=)
.    .    .    17w Ed5n Ed6n cc7s cc6x Ed7w
.    .    .    .    17b ed3w ec3e Ccn2 Cc3x rb8s (=+)
.    .    16b Dc4w ed4w ha5s mc5w
.    .    .    17w Ed5n Ed6n cc7s cc6x Ed7w
.    .    .    .    17b ec4s ec3n Ccn2 Cc3x rb8s
.    .    .    .    .    18w rb3e Ha3e Rc1n Md2n (unclear)
.    .    16b Dc4w ed4w ha5s dd8s
.    .    .    17w Ed5n mc5e rb3e Ha3e (=)
.    .    16b ha5e Dc4w mc5s dd8s
.    .    .    17w rb3e Ha3e Ed5w (+=)
.    16w Ee5w mc5w Ed5w Dc4s
.    .    16b rb4w mb5n dd8s ed4w
.    .    .    17w Hb3w ra4e Ha3n Dc3w
.    .    .    .    17b hg6e hh6w Rh5n rh8s (=+)
.    .    16b ed4w hg6e hh6w Rh5n
.    .    .    17w Hb3w rb4s mb5s Ec5w (+=)
15b mc5s rb4w mc4w Dc3n
.    16w Ee5w Ed5w Ec5w Ra2n
.    .    16b Dc4n ed4w ha6e dd8s
.    .    .    17w Dc5e Dd5e De5s De4s
.    .    .    .    17b ec4e ed4s mb4e mc4e
.    .    .    .    .    18w Eb5e Ec5e md4e Ed5s
.    .    .    .    .    .    18b De3e ed3e me4n me5n (+=)
.    16w Ee5w Ed5w Dc4s Ec5w
.    .    16b Hb3s mb4s ra4s ed4s
.    .    .    17w Eb5s Dc3n Cc2n Md2w
.    .    .    .    17b ha6e hb6s Hb3s mb4s
.    .    .    .    .    18w Ea4w ra3n Ra2n rc1e
.    .    .    .    .    .    18b Dc3n ed3w Dc4n ec3n (=+)
.    .    16b mb4e mc4n Dc3n ha6e
.    .    .    17w mc5e Eb5e md5e Ec5e (=)
15b ha6s ha5s ha4s ed4w
.    16w Ee5w Ed5n mc5e Dc3e
.    .    16b mc5w mb5s ec5w ec5s
.    .    .    17w Cc2n Md2w Mc2w Cc3s
.    .    .    .    17b Hb3e mb4s ra4e dd8s
.    .    .    .    .    17w Ed4n Ed5w Ec5w De2n (unclear)
.    .    .    .    17b mb4n Hb3n mb5n Hb4n
.    .    .    .    .    18w Mb2n Ed4n Ed5w Hc5s (+=)
.    .    16b rb4w ec4e md5w ed4n  
.    .    .    17w Ed6e Ee6s Ee5s Ee4w
.    .    .    .    17b hg6e hh6w Rh5n dd8s
.    .    .    .    .    18w Cc2n Md2w Mc2w Cc3s (unclear)
.    .    16b ec4e md5w ed4w Dd3n
.    .    .    17w Ed6s Ed5n mc5e Md3n
.    .    .    .    17b rb4w Dd4e ec4e md5w
.    .    .    .    .    18w De2n Md3w Hb3s Mc3w (+=)
.    .    .    17w Ed6s Dd4s Ed5n mc5e
.    .    .    .    17b ec4e md5w ed4w Dd3n
.    .    .    .    .    18w Ed6s Dd4s Ed5n mc5e (-+)
.    16w Ee5w Ed5s mc5e Dc3e
.    .    16b dd8s dd7s md5w dd6w
.    .    .    17w Hb3s rb4s rb3e Hb2n
.    .    .    .    17b hg6e hh6w Rh5n rg7e (=+)
.    16w Cc2w Dc3s Ee5e Ef5e
.    .    16b rb4w ec4w eb4e Hb3n
.    .    .    17w Md2n Md3w Mc3w De2n
.    .    .    .    17b mc5w mb5n Hb4n ce7s
.    .    .    .    .    18w Eg5w hg6s hg5s Ef5e
.    .    .    .    .    .    18b mb6n Hb5n Hb6e Hc6x mb7s
.    .    .    .    .    .    .    19w hg4w Eg5s hf4s hf3x Eg4w
.    .    .    .    .    .    .    .    19b ec4w eb4e Mb3n ha3e (=+)
.    16w Ee5e Ef5e Eg5w hg6s
.    .    16b ec4e Dc3n mc5w Dc4n
.    .    .    17w Ef5s hg5w Ef4w hf5s
.    .    .    .    17b Dc5n Dc6x mb5e ed4s ed3e (-+)
15b ed4w rb4w ec4e Dc3n
.    16w Hb3n Dc4s Hb4s Ee5w (=+)
.    16w Hb3e Dc4w Db4s ra4e
.    .    16b ha6s ha5s ha4s ed4w (=+)
.    .    16b ed4w rb4w ec4e Hc3n
.    .    .    17w Db3e Hc4w Hb4s ra4e
.    .    .    .    17b ed4w rb4w ec4e Dc3n
.    .    .    .    .    18w Hb3e Dc4w Db4s ra4e
.    .    .    .    .    .    18b ed4w rb4w ec4e Hc3n (+-)
15b ha6s ha5s ha4s ed4s
.    16w Cc2w Dc3s Md2s Ee5w
.    .    16b ed3n ed4w mc5w dd8s
.    .    .    17w Md1n Ed5n Ed6s dd7s (unclear)
.    .    .    17w Ed5w mb5w Ec5w Md1n
.    .    .    .    17b ha3n Ra2n ma5n ma6e (=+)
.    .    16b hg6e hh6w Rh5n dd8s
.    .    .    17w mc5s Ed5w mc4s Ec5s (unclear)
.    16w Ee5w mc5s Ed5w Md2s
.    .    16b ed3n rb4w mc4w ed4w
.    .    .    17w Ec5w Hb3s mb4s Eb5s
.    .    .    .    17b Dc3e mb3e ha3e dd8s (=+)
.    16w Ee5w mc5s Ed5w Ra2e
.    .    16b ha3s ha2n Ra1n dd8s (=+)
.    16w Ee5e Ef5e Eg5w hg6s
.    .    16b ed3e Md2n Md3n ee3w (-+)
15b ed4w rb4w ha6e dd8s
.    16w Ee5w Ed5n mc5e Dc3e (=)
15b hg6e hh6w Rh5n ed4w
.    16w Ee5e Ef5e Eg5w hg6s
.    .    16b ec4e Dc3n rg7s ce7s
.    .    .    17w Ef5w Ee5w ce6s Rh6n (unclear)
15b ed4w rb4w ec4w Dc3n
.    16w Ee5w Ed5n mc5e (=)
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jdb
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Re: Move 15
« Reply #29 on: Oct 16th, 2007, 11:50pm »
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Thanks for the tree Fritz.
 
I think the position is about equal after
 
15b ed4w ec4e Dc3n ha6s  
.    16w Ee5w mc5n Ed5w Dc4s  
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