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   Author  Topic: Move 16  (Read 6115 times)
Fritzlein
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Re: Move 16
« Reply #15 on: Nov 1st, 2007, 5:08pm »
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on Nov 1st, 2007, 4:15pm, Soter wrote:
Is 16b ha5e hb5s rb3w dd8s worth anything?

Actually, getting our rabbit over to a3 was my first inclination, but I got afraid of the gold camel coming to b3, so I didn't mention it.  On a second look, however, our horse isn't in all that much danger.  Also we may have some compensation because his horse is on a bad square at b2.  Maybe we should spend some time thinking about this line.  It seems we would have to give up on hunting his dog and chase his camel instead.  Maybe
 
16b ha5e hb5s rb3w dd8s
.    17w Cc2e Md3w Mc3w Hb2e
.    .    17b Dc4s ed4w mc5n ha4w
 
with a threat to take a camel hostage.  Thanks for raising the possibility so I re-examined my gut reaction.
« Last Edit: Nov 1st, 2007, 5:08pm by Fritzlein » IP Logged

Fritzlein
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Re: Move 16
« Reply #16 on: Nov 1st, 2007, 5:25pm »
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Proto-tree:
16b Md3s ed4s ha5e dd8s
.    17w Ed5n mc5e rb3e Hb2n
.    .    17b hb5e md5s Dc3e md4w (=+)
16b ha5e hb5s rb3w dd8s
.    17w Cc2e Md3w Mc3w Hb2e
.    .    17b Dc4s ed4w mc5n ha4w (=+)
16b Md3s ed4s ha5e hb5s
.    17w Ed5n mc5e rb3e Hb2n
.    .    17b Dc4n hb4e Dc5n hb4n
.    .    .    18w Dc6w Db6w md5e Ed6s
.    .    .    .    18b ce7s me5s me4w md4w (?)
16b hg6e hh6w Rh5n ha5e
.    17w Ed5n mc5e md5e Ed6s (+=)
.    17w rb3e rc3x Hb2n Hb3n Dc4s (=)
16b Dc3w ed4w ha5e hg6e
.    17w rb3e Hb2n Ed5n mc5e (+=)

 
I hesitate to order the tree this way before mdk has a crack at the top three lines, but I have to move the other two suggestions to the bottom because those (at the moment) stand concretely refuted.  Of course new top-level suggestions are still welcome in addition to growing the branches on the given lines.
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UruramTururam
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Re: Move 16
« Reply #17 on: Nov 1st, 2007, 8:39pm »
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on Nov 1st, 2007, 3:11pm, mdk wrote:

16b: Dc3w ed4w ha5e hg6e
.    17w rb3e Hb2n Ed5n mc5e

 
Yes, this is a painful answer.
C&G had a longer thought before his latest move, I think he calculated it well... But freezing one's own camel is quite an unusual move. I wonder if we have a strong response that leaves the camel frozen...  
 
By now the move that came into my mind is kamikazish orchestrating EMHR against c3:  
16b: ha5e Dc4w mc5s hb5e
 
 
 
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Re: Move 16
« Reply #18 on: Nov 2nd, 2007, 8:22am »
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Quote:
By now the move that came into my mind is kamikazish orchestrating EMHR against c3:  
16b: ha5e Dc4w mc5s hb5e

 
How about a "cousin" of Ururam's move:  
ha5e Dc4w mc5s dd8s?  
 
I know this is no holy grail ( the rabbit frame seems imminent anyway ), but I can't think of anything better now.
 
 
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RonWeasley
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Re: Move 16
« Reply #19 on: Nov 2nd, 2007, 8:42am »
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Good discussion so far.  Let's try to begin voting Monday morning and ending Tuesday evening.
 
I'm leaning toward 16b Md3s ed4s ha5e dd8s because the dog threat maintains the initiative.
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arimaa_master
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Re: Move 16
« Reply #20 on: Nov 2nd, 2007, 12:34pm »
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on Nov 1st, 2007, 5:25pm, Fritzlein wrote:
Proto-tree:
16b Md3s ed4s ha5e dd8s
.    17w Ed5n mc5e rb3e Hb2n
.    .    17b hb5e md5s Dc3e md4w (=+)
16b ha5e hb5s rb3w dd8s
.    17w Cc2e Md3w Mc3w Hb2e
.    .    17b Dc4s ed4w mc5n ha4w (=+)
16b Md3s ed4s ha5e hb5s
.    17w Ed5n mc5e rb3e Hb2n
.    .    17b Dc4n hb4e Dc5n hb4n
.    .    .    18w Dc6w Db6w md5e Ed6s
.    .    .    .    18b ce7s me5s me4w md4w (?)
16b hg6e hh6w Rh5n ha5e
.    17w Ed5n mc5e md5e Ed6s (+=)
.    17w rb3e rc3x Hb2n Hb3n Dc4s (=)
16b Dc3w ed4w ha5e hg6e
.    17w rb3e Hb2n Ed5n mc5e (+=)

 
I hesitate to order the tree this way before mdk has a crack at the top three lines, but I have to move the other two suggestions to the bottom because those (at the moment) stand concretely refuted.  Of course new top-level suggestions are still welcome in addition to growing the branches on the given lines.

 
Since no one answered to my suggestion:  
 
"And here is my first-glance suggestion:
 
16b Dc4s ed4w mc5n dd8s (=+)?
"
 
And here (see below) are my "refutations" of two top lines
 
so I incline to my 16b Dc4s ed4w mc5n dd8s (=+ / =)?
 
 
1)
16b Md3s ed4s ha5e dd8s
 
I am a little bit worried about camel flip:
 
17w Ed5n mc5e md5e Ed6s
 
 
2)  
16b ha5e hb5s rb3w dd8s
 
the same camel flip may work (although there could be some sharp lines)
 
17w Ed5n mc5e md5e Ed6s
 
 
3)
 
16b Md3s ed4s ha5e hb5s
.    17w Ed5n mc5e rb3e Hb2n
.    .    17b Dc4n hb4e Dc5n hb4n
.    .    .    18w Dc6w Db6w md5e Ed6s
.    .    .    .    18b ce7s me5s me4w md4w (?)
 
I donīt really know the evaluation too but the next move could be  
 
19w ce7s me5s me4w md4w
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
« Last Edit: Nov 3rd, 2007, 7:12am by arimaa_master » IP Logged
99of9
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Re: Move 16
« Reply #21 on: Nov 2nd, 2007, 10:56pm »
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I haven't even had time to read the other suggestions, but my suggestion is:
Dc4w ed4w mc5w dd8s
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mdk
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Re: Move 16
« Reply #22 on: Nov 3rd, 2007, 1:02pm »
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on Nov 1st, 2007, 5:25pm, Fritzlein wrote:
Proto-tree:
16b Md3s ed4s ha5e dd8s
.    17w Ed5n mc5e rb3e Hb2n
.    .    17b hb5e md5s Dc3e md4w (=+)
16b ha5e hb5s rb3w dd8s
.    17w Cc2e Md3w Mc3w Hb2e
.    .    17b Dc4s ed4w mc5n ha4w (=+)
16b Md3s ed4s ha5e hb5s
.    17w Ed5n mc5e rb3e Hb2n
.    .    17b Dc4n hb4e Dc5n hb4n
.    .    .    18w Dc6w Db6w md5e Ed6s
.    .    .    .    18b ce7s me5s me4w md4w (?)
16b hg6e hh6w Rh5n ha5e
.    17w Ed5n mc5e md5e Ed6s (+=)
.    17w rb3e rc3x Hb2n Hb3n Dc4s (=)
16b Dc3w ed4w ha5e hg6e
.    17w rb3e Hb2n Ed5n mc5e (+=)

 
I hesitate to order the tree this way before mdk has a crack at the top three lines, but I have to move the other two suggestions to the bottom because those (at the moment) stand concretely refuted.  Of course new top-level suggestions are still welcome in addition to growing the branches on the given lines.

 
Sorry I haven't responded sooner. There seem to be a number of plausible suggestions at this point.  
 
A couple of general comments first. The camel flip 17w Ed5n mc5e md5e Ed6s seems to be a likely response for many of the moves that do not move the camel. Does this mean that our camel belongs on the western wing? I'm not completely sure. In some lines I think so  in other lines I don't. Also we need to be careful that we do not leave our camel in a position where it will be taken hostage without ample compensation.  
 
Now some specific lines
 
16b Md3s ed4s ha5e dd8s
.    17w Ed5n mc5e rb3e Hb2n
.    .    17b hb5e md5s Dc3e md4w
.    .    .    18w Ed6s Ed5n hc5e Db4w
 
are all our pieces safe or are we just going to end up giving up a camel hostage?
 
We should also look at the line of the camel flip
 
16b Md3s ed4s ha5e dd8s
.    17w Ed5n mc5e md5e Ed6s
.    .    17b ce7s me5e mf5n hb5s
.    .    .    18w Ed5e Ee5e Ef5e mf6s
.    .    .    .    18b ce6s mf5n Dc4n hb4e (+)
.    .    .    18w Ed5e Ee5e Ef5w mf6s
.    .    .    .     18b hg6s mf5n Dc4n hb4e (and again we look ahead)
 
so going after the camel on 18w doesn't work. But what if chessandgo tries something different. Is there a way he can launch an EH attack on the western side of the board? If there is he seems to be better as our camel is on the eastern side of the board.
 
Say he now plays 18w rb3e Hb2n Ed5n Cc2w.
How would you evaluate this position? I'm not really sure how to evaluate it. Am I just imagining that chessandgo has such a threat or is it an actual possibility?
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Re: Move 16
« Reply #23 on: Nov 3rd, 2007, 1:48pm »
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16b ha5e hb5s rb3w dd8s
.    17w Ed5n mc5e md5e Ed6s
.    .    17b Dc4n hb4e Dc5n Dc6x hc4n
.    .    .    18w me5s Ed5e me4s Ee5s
.    .    .    .    18b ed4w Md3n Md4n ec4e (+)
.    .    .    18w hc5s Ed5w hc4s hc3x Ec5s
.    .    .    .    18b ed4e Md3n Md4n ee4w
.    .    .    .    .    19w Ec4n Md5n Md6w Mc6w
.    .    .    .    .    .    19b ed4w ec4w eb4n dd7s
.    .    .    .    .    .    .    20w Ec5e me5e Ed5e Hg3n (-)
.    .    .    .    .    .    19b ed4w ec4w eb4n me5n
.    .    .    .    .    .    .    20w Ec5n Ec6e cc7s cc6x Hb2n(-)
     (we end up down HCR for D and M hostage)
 
there are other moves for 19b but i haven't found a line that doesn't leave us down. So unless someone can find a 19b that works for us or a flaw in my analysis we need a different 17b. I'm  sure there are some reasonable suggestions but I think the real thing to consider is if our position is worstened by having our camel on the east.
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Re: Move 16
« Reply #24 on: Nov 3rd, 2007, 1:56pm »
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on Nov 2nd, 2007, 12:34pm, arimaa_master wrote:

 
Since no one answered to my suggestion:  
 
"And here is my first-glance suggestion:
 
16b Dc4s ed4w mc5n dd8s (=+)?
"
 
And here (see below) are my "refutations" of two top lines
 
so I incline to my 16b Dc4s ed4w mc5n dd8s (=+ / =)?
 
[edit]...
 
3)
 
16b Md3s ed4s ha5e hb5s
.    17w Ed5n mc5e rb3e Hb2n
.    .    17b Dc4n hb4e Dc5n hb4n
.    .    .    18w Dc6w Db6w md5e Ed6s
.    .    .    .    18b ce7s me5s me4w md4w (?)
 
I donīt really know the evaluation too but the next move could be  
 
19w ce7s me5s me4w md4w

 
What did you mean to suggest for 19w arimaa master?
 
One thing I would consider is 19w Ed5n hc5e hd5e Ed6s
 
our position is left imbalanced in that both our horses are on the same side and our camel suddenly seems much more vulnerable to being taken hostage. Additionally, gold's advanced dog doesn't look so bad because there isn't a horse on that side of the board to take it hostage.  
 
So there is my crack at the top three Fritz. Hope my contribution helps bring about a better decision. Fortunately the mob seems to be filled with suggestions as there are 5 more moves that have been posted since the original tree but unfortunately I do not have time at the moment to take a look at those. Hopefully later. I'm looking forward to hearing some responses.
« Last Edit: Nov 3rd, 2007, 2:08pm by mdk » IP Logged
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Re: Move 16
« Reply #25 on: Nov 3rd, 2007, 4:32pm »
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on Nov 3rd, 2007, 1:56pm, mdk wrote:

 
What did you mean to suggest for 19w arimaa master?
 

 
I am not sure that I follow your question coz I suggested  
 
 19w ce7s me5s me4w md4w  (but it is visible) - but anyway I think that we are not ahead after that nor after your suggested move - so I agree with you.
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Re: Move 16
« Reply #26 on: Nov 3rd, 2007, 4:44pm »
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on Nov 1st, 2007, 8:39pm, UruramTururam wrote:

 
Yes, this is a painful answer.
C&G had a longer thought before his latest move, I think he calculated it well... But freezing one's own camel is quite an unusual move. I wonder if we have a strong response that leaves the camel frozen...  
 
By now the move that came into my mind is kamikazish orchestrating EMHR against c3:  
16b: ha5e Dc4w mc5s hb5e
 
 
 

 
 
Very interesting move,  
I donīt think that it is bad move, but at least I donīt see any advantage for us after:
 
17w hc5n Ed5w mc4s Ec5s
17b Md3e ed4s Cc2e mc3s
18w rb3w Db4s Ec4s Me3e
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Re: Move 16
« Reply #27 on: Nov 3rd, 2007, 5:12pm »
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on Nov 2nd, 2007, 8:22am, Soter wrote:

 
How about a "cousin" of Ururam's move:  
ha5e Dc4w mc5s dd8s?  
 
I know this is no holy grail ( the rabbit frame seems imminent anyway ), but I can't think of anything better now.
 
 

 
I think that we could be in serious trouble after:
 
17w Ed5w mc4s Ec5s De2n
 
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Re: Move 16
« Reply #28 on: Nov 3rd, 2007, 5:37pm »
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on Nov 2nd, 2007, 10:56pm, 99of9 wrote:
I haven't even had time to read the other suggestions, but my suggestion is:
Dc4w ed4w mc5w dd8s

 
 
Very interesting move.
 
I thought about this:
 
17w rb3e Hb2n Db4w Ed5w
17b hg6e hh6w Rh5n mb5n
18w Md3s rc3e rd3e Md2n
18b ec4e ed4e Md3n rg7e
19w Ec5e re3e rf3x De2n Md4s
 
now we could flip the dog but it is unclear after:
 
19b ee4w De3n De4n ed4e
20w De5e Ed5e Df5s Ee5e
20b ha5n Da4n Da5e ha6s
21w Hb3n Db5e Dc5s Df4s
 
 
so maybe it would be better to recapture the rabbit by:
 
19b hg6s Rh6w Rg6w Rf6x hg5n
 
 
but now I found this variation:
 
16b Dc4w ed4w mc5w dd8s
17w rb3e Hb2n Db4w Ed5w
17b hg6e hh6w Rh5n mb5n
18w Md3s rc3e rd3e Md2n
18b ec4e ed4e Md3n rg7e
19w Ec5e re3e rf3x De2n Md4s
19b ee4e De3n De4n ef4w
20w De5e Df5s Ed5e Ee5e
20b ha5n Da4n ha6n Da5n
21w Df4s Ef5w Ee5w Ed5n
21b hg6s Rh6w Rg6w Rf6x hg5n (=+)
 
where we have dog hostage for our good but this could be complicated at any point so no guarantee at all Smiley
 
 
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Re: Move 16
« Reply #29 on: Nov 3rd, 2007, 6:34pm »
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on Nov 3rd, 2007, 4:32pm, arimaa_master wrote:

 
I am not sure that I follow your question coz I suggested  
 
 19w ce7s me5s me4w md4w  (but it is visible) - but anyway I think that we are not ahead after that nor after your suggested move - so I agree with you.

 
your 19w is a move for silver (the move that Fritz suggests for 18b). so i thought you meant to suggest a 19w that chessandgo might play
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