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   Author  Topic: Move 19  (Read 2768 times)
Soter
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Move 19
« on: Dec 12th, 2007, 10:57am »
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I copied the tree for convenience
 
 
18b hc5w hb5w ha5s mc4w  
.    19w Ed5w Ec5w mb4e Eb5s  
.    .    19b mc4n hg6e hh6w Rh5n  
.    .    .    20w Hg3n Hg4n Hg5w Eb4e  
.    .    .    .    20b ha4n ha5e mc5e md5e (-+)  
.    .    .    20w Hg3n Hg4n Hg5w Eb4n  
.    .    .    .    20b dd7s cc7s mc5e md5e  
.    .    .    .    .    21w Eb5e Ec5e me5s Ed5e  
.    .    .    .    .    .    21b ed3e rc3x me4e Hf5n Hf6x mf4n  
.    .    .    .    .    .    .    22w Ee5w Ed5e dd6s cc6x Rf1w  
.    .    .    .    .    .    .    .    22b hg6s Rh6w Rg6w Rf6x hg5n  
.    .    .    .    .    .    .    .    .    23w dd5w Ee5w dc5n dc6x Ed5w  
.    .    .    .    .    .    .    .    .    .    23b mf5s mf4s mf3n Cf2n Cf3x (=+)  
.    .    .    .    .    21w De2n Cf2n Cf3n Hf5e  
.    .    .    .    .    .    21b cc6s me5e ce7s ce6s (-+)  
.    19w Ed5s Ed4w mb5n Ec4w  
.    .    19b hg6e hh6w Rh5n rb8s  
.    .    .    20w Hg3n Hg4n Hg5w De2n  
.    .    .    .    20b rb7s mb5e mc5e md5e  
.    .    .    .    .    21w Cf2n Cf3n Hf5e Eb4e  
.    .    .    .    .    .    21b hg6w Rh6w hf6s Rg6w Rf6x (-+)  
.    .    .    20w Hg3n Hg4n Hg5w Eb4e  
.    .    .    .    20b ha4e Da3n Da4n hb4w (=+)  
.    19w Hg3n Hg4n Hg5w Ed5w  
.    .    19b mb4n ha4e Da3n mb5n (=+)  
18b cc7s dd7w hc5w ce7w  
.    19w Ed5w mc4e Ec5s Hb3n  
.    .    19b md4n md5w hb5w mc5w  
.    .    .    20w Da3e Hb4w Ec4w Ra1n (=+)  
18b hc5w hg6e hh6w Rh5n  
.    19w Ed5w mc4e Ec5s De2n  
.    .    19b md4e me4n me5n rh8s  
.    .    .    20w Ec4e Ed4e Ee4n Da3s  
.    .    .    .    20b hg6s Rh6w Rg6w Rf6x hg5n  
.    .    .    .    .    21w Ee5w me6s me5s Ed5e (=)  
.    .    19b hg6w Rh6w hf6s Rg6w Rf6x  
.    .    .    20w md4e Ec4e Ed4n Ed5e (=)  
18b hg6e hh6w Rh5n mc4w  
.    19w Ed5s Ed4w mb4w Ec4w  
.    .    19b hg6s Rh6w Rg6w Rf6x hg5n  
.    .    .    20w rc3n Hb3e rc4e Hc3n (=)  
18b hg6e hh6w Rh5n dd7s  
.    19w Ed5s hc5e hd5e Ed4n  
.    .    19b mc4w mb4e Hb3n rc3w  
.    .    .    20w Ed5w mc4s Ec5s Ra1n (+=)  
.    .    19b hg6s Rh6w Rg6w Rf6x hg5n  
.    .    .    20w he5s Ed5e he4s Ee5s (+=)  
 
I have a hunch that Jean may react soon (given his depleted reserve). Let's hope he won't surprise us this time...
 
 
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The_Jeh
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Re: Move 19
« Reply #1 on: Dec 12th, 2007, 1:37pm »
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Jean has indeed reacted soon.
 
19w Ed5w De2s Md2e Me2n
 
Does Jean think he can trade rabbits by threatening to pry around with his camel on the east side? This, another non-tree move, has come within 7 hours, which is a bit suspicious.
 
A  move that I'm probably not going to support in the end, but that I will put out there for discussion, is to flip his horse. We could trade cats. Jean cannot take our dog immediately afterwards because when we capture his cat, it will expose a threat to his camel, not to mention a goal threat. Then, whichever way he tries to come back and defend the c3 trap, the horse we flipped will be in danger. I also think flipping the horse might soften the southwest corner such that Chessandgo gets tied up. There is probably an easy way for Chessandgo to defend this, but I just thought I'd put it out there.
« Last Edit: Dec 12th, 2007, 2:04pm by The_Jeh » IP Logged
Fritzlein
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Re: Move 19
« Reply #2 on: Dec 12th, 2007, 4:26pm »
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Thanks for quickly noticing and posting the move, John.  With luck we can again disucss on the weekend, vote early next week, and not lose any reserve.
 
on Dec 12th, 2007, 1:37pm, The_Jeh wrote:
This, another non-tree move, has come within 7 hours, which is a bit suspicious.

I don't think the move is suspicious at all.  Chessandgo could have thought about the position for hours before moving.  Furthermore, his clock was quite low, and if he is going to be unavailable for the holidays, he may have felt pressured to build up his reserve.
 
As for avoiding the tree, we only listed three moves out of thousands.  Chessandgo clearly has a different strategic take on the game and has been fretting that his camel is too passive.  Like most moves, however, his camel activation is double-edged; in some long term lines it makes our attack on c3 more powerful because his camel is not defending.  In other lines his camel itself could be a liability.
 
In any event, the move is in keeping with all my games against chessandgo.  Just when I think I'm about to secure an advantage, he finds a way to complicate the position.  It is as if he knows that he can outplay me when the board gets messy, so no matter how much trouble he is in, he can just keep raising the stakes until I crack tactically.  My hope for this game is that there will be enough Mob members with enough time to analyze to withstand his tactical shenanigans, and make any strategic advantage we have hold up.
 
My first reaction is 19b Da3s ha4s mb4w Hb3n  (with no board in front of me, so for all I know it hangs a piece Wink)
« Last Edit: Dec 12th, 2007, 4:44pm by Fritzlein » IP Logged

Fritzlein
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Re: Move 19
« Reply #3 on: Dec 12th, 2007, 5:31pm »
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on Dec 12th, 2007, 1:37pm, The_Jeh wrote:
A  move that I'm probably not going to support in the end, but that I will put out there for discussion, is to flip his horse. We could trade cats.

OK, a little analysis makes both of our hunches look bad.  After flipping the horse, we are fine if he accepts the cat trade, but in trouble if he tries to take our camel hostage instead.  After the dog-push-horse-pull move, he can shut down our attack and his active camel is too dangerous.  Possibly chessandgo moved quickly because he found a move which secures a clear advantage no matter what we do.
 
This may be a move where a huge tree is called for.  Not only do we need more suggestions, we need more analysis of sharp lines.  Even the lines I am giving below can turn on a dime if the other player has a tactical resource I didn't spot.  This could get very sharp very soon, and move 19 may turn out to be critical enough to warrant dipping into reserve.
 
19b mb4e Hb3n Hb4n mc4w
.    20w Ec5s mb4s Ec4w Cc2e
.    .    20b Rb2w mb3s mb2e Rb1n
.    .    .    21w Hb5n Hb6n cc7s cc6x Hb7e
.    .    .    .    21b Cd2e mc2e rc3s md2s
.    .    .    .    .    22w Ce2w Da3e Eb4e ha4e
.    .    .    .    .    .    22b dd7s ra8s rb8s rb7s
.    .    .    .    .    .    .    23w Cf2w rc2n Cd2w Ce2w (+-)
.    20w Ec5s mb4s Ec4w De1w
.    .    20b ed3s rc3e Cc2n Cc3x ed2w
.    .    .    21w Me3e rd3e Mf3n re3e rf3x
.    .    .    .    21b dd7s ra8s ra7s ra6s
.    .    .    .    .    22w Rb2w mb3s Eb4s (+=)
.    20w Hb5n Hb6n cc7s cc6x Hb7e
.    .    20b rc3w ed3w ec3e Cc2n Cc3x
.    .    .    21w Ra1n rb3e Da3e Rc1n
.    .    .    .    21b mb4n ha4e mb5n dd7s (=+)
19b Da3s ha4s mb4w Hb3n
.    20w Ec5s Hb4s De1n Me3e
.    .    20b hg6e hh6w Rh5n rh8s
.    .    .    21w Mf3n Mf4e Mg4n Hg3n (+=)
« Last Edit: Dec 12th, 2007, 5:32pm by Fritzlein » IP Logged

UruramTururam
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Re: Move 19
« Reply #4 on: Dec 12th, 2007, 5:31pm »
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Two responses come into my mind:
 
Quite normal: 19b  hg6e hh6w Rh5n dd7s  
 
And quite crazy: 19b ha4n Da3n Hb3w mb4s
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Re: Move 19
« Reply #5 on: Dec 12th, 2007, 5:51pm »
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on Dec 12th, 2007, 5:31pm, UruramTururam wrote:
Quite normal: 19b  hg6e hh6w Rh5n dd7s

I rejected this move superficially because I thought he could take our camel hostage, but after
19b hg6e hh6w Rh5n dd7s
.    20w Ec5w Eb5w Ea5e ha4n
.    .    20b ra8s ra7s ha5s ra6s
We seem to be in reasonable shape, although the position remains unclear.  I will look for a more dangerous 20w.
 
Quote:
And quite crazy: 19b ha4n Da3n Hb3w mb4s

Interesting!  There is some threat to try to capture a dog if he tries for the camel hostage, and chessandgo must avoid that.  In a brief look I can't find a refutation.
 
Thanks for giving us a couple of hopeful looking suggestions.
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Re: Move 19
« Reply #6 on: Dec 12th, 2007, 8:54pm »
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on Dec 12th, 2007, 5:31pm, UruramTururam wrote:
And quite crazy: 19b ha4n Da3n Hb3w mb4s

 
I like this move.
 
Golds last move is aiming to attack the f6 trap. Silver has no easy way to defend that trap because of all the advanced pieces. This means Silver needs to do something active to maintain the advantage.  
 
But to be fair, this move is very sharp and the smallest mistake could be very costly.  
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arimaa_master
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Re: Move 19
« Reply #7 on: Dec 13th, 2007, 8:38am »
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on Dec 12th, 2007, 5:31pm, Fritzlein wrote:

This may be a move where a huge tree is called for.  Not only do we need more suggestions, we need more analysis of sharp lines.  Even the lines I am giving below can turn on a dime if the other player has a tactical resource I didn't spot.  This could get very sharp very soon, and move 19 may turn out to be critical enough to warrant dipping into reserve.
[/font]

 
I think bomb could be useful here.
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Re: Move 19
« Reply #8 on: Dec 13th, 2007, 12:36pm »
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I had been looking at ha4n Da3n Hb3w mb4s as an aggressive move, so I'm glad UT found it first and others are looking at it.  I don't see any really good responses.
 
Gold has to protect the cat.  Additionally, gold wants a camel hostage but not if the silver horse drags away the dog.  Also lurking is a goal threat.  The gold camel is temporarily precarious, but is in no immediate danger.  This limits the responses.
 
The best I can come up with is 20w De1n Me3e De2w Ec5w.
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Re: Move 19
« Reply #9 on: Dec 13th, 2007, 3:51pm »
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on Dec 13th, 2007, 12:36pm, RonWeasley wrote:
I had been looking at ha4n Da3n Hb3w mb4s as an aggressive move, so I'm glad UT found it first and others are looking at it.  I don't see any really good responses.

Actually, there is a response for chessandgo to save his cat, save his dog, and threaten to take our camel hostage, namely 20w Ec5w Eb5s ha5e Cc2e.  My first thought was 20b Rb2w mb3s Rb1n mb2e, which is very unclear.  Do we have better for 20b?
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Re: Move 19
« Reply #10 on: Dec 13th, 2007, 4:25pm »
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Quote:
Actually, there is a response for chessandgo to save his cat, save his dog, and threaten to take our camel hostage, namely 20w Ec5w Eb5s ha5e Cc2e.  My first thought was 20b Rb2w mb3s Rb1n mb2e, which is very unclear.  Do we have better for 20b?

 
Maybe  
 
Rb2w mb3s rc3w mb2e
 
instead of
 
Rb2w mb3s Rb1n mb2e?
 
but this is a first glance idea.
 
P.S. I'm gonna post some bits of analysis soon
 
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Re: Move 19
« Reply #11 on: Dec 13th, 2007, 6:15pm »
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I am not an official member of the Mob, but I have been watching this game closely.  Mostly I have stayed out of the discussion because I have trouble reading the moves, but I think I have it figured out now.  
 
19b ha4n Da3n Hb3w mb4s is a move that I saw independent of this discussion and at first glance it looks pretty good.  I agree that this line could get super sharp and we will need to be careful that he can't get a Camel Hostage out of it.  But being super aggressive with the Camel is probably a wise thing to do with this many eyes looking at each move. This move also serves to put his Dog in a bit of trouble too.
 
   
 
 
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Re: Move 19
« Reply #12 on: Dec 13th, 2007, 6:36pm »
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Hello, Mistre!
 
If you've been following the game, why don't you jump on our bandwagon? Together we shall swarm chessandgo Smiley
 
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Re: Move 19
« Reply #13 on: Dec 13th, 2007, 6:37pm »
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I wouldn't like to leave the gold rabbit unmolested - and  
I attempted to inspect hg6e hh6w Rh5n xxxx .
It all starts resembling the Gordian Knot ( sword is missing :/ )  
I can't use my planning window at the moment, so please correct me - there may be mistakes.
 
1.
 
19b hg6e hh6w Rh5n dd7s
20w Hg3e Hh3n Hh4n Rh6n
20b hg6e hh6w Rh7s rh8s
21w De1n Me3n Hh5w Hh4w(?!)
 
Does 20w look realistic? If yes, then maybe blocking the rabbit (rh8s replaces dd7s) is wiser?
 
 
2.  
 
19b  hg6e hh6w Rh5n dd7s
20w Hg3n Hg4n Hg5w De1n
20b ed3n rc3x ed4e ee4e mb4n( the sharpest line I found - but highly improbable )
 
possible 21w-s:
 
21w Me3n De2n Me4n Hf5e
21w Me3n De2n Me4n Me5n (we're better I think)
21w Ec5e Ed5e Hf5e xxxx (flipping options in the west: compensation for lost rabbit? Don't think so.)
 
Maybe there exists a way to squeeze more than an equal trade ( at best ) out of such wild lines, but I don't see it.
 
 
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Re: Move 19
« Reply #14 on: Dec 13th, 2007, 7:37pm »
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on Dec 13th, 2007, 6:15pm, mistre wrote:
I am not an official member of the Mob, but I have been watching this game closely.  Mostly I have stayed out of the discussion because I have trouble reading the moves, but I think I have it figured out now.

Welcome to the Mob!  You are of course welcome to vote even if you don't participate in the discussion, but if you are going to discuss as well, you picked a perfect time to start doing so.  If the game continues to get sharp, smaller mistakes will have bigger consequences, and we need all the eyeballs we can get examining the position.
 
As for the notation, I also find it tricky to get a handle on, as you can see from my notational errors in many previous posts.  You'll get used to it as you try to express yourself more, and never mind any mistakes along the way.
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