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   Author  Topic: Move 21  (Read 3010 times)
The_Jeh
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Re: Move 21
« Reply #15 on: Jan 20th, 2008, 4:22pm »
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on Jan 19th, 2008, 1:26pm, mdk wrote:

 
21b ed3n Dc4w ed4w ha5s
what if chessandgo traps our camel where it is with 22w Me3w xxxx xxxx xxxx?
i guess the three other steps would be used to begin to advance pieces on the eastern side of the board. would this be good or bad for us?
 

 
     I suppose a move like 22b ec4e Md3e ed4s xxxx would be all right. The difference between the position after this move and the position right now is that after this 22b, gold's dog is frozen and gold's horse is blockaded, resulting, I think, in a net increase in advantage for us.  Now, you might notice that we can accomplish this same position immediately by playing 21b ha5s ha4e hb4w Dc4w. However, we might as well play 21b ed3n Dc4w ed4w ha5s on the off chance that Chessandgo makes an error, such as have been discussed in previous posts. Any opportunity for him to blunder is good for us.
 
OR... We could simply allow Chessandgo to play Me3w. After all, his camel, among other pieces, must stay there or else he loses material. We would actually have more free pieces than he to thwart off any attack, and maybe we could even start one of our own.
 
And finally, 22b ec4e ed4e Md3n mc3e, if playable, could get interesting.
 
However, I'd like some more analysis from those experts among us.
« Last Edit: Jan 20th, 2008, 6:54pm by The_Jeh » IP Logged
UruramTururam
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Re: Move 21
« Reply #16 on: Jan 22nd, 2008, 3:09am »
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How about:  
 
21b: ha5s ha4e hb4w Dc4w ?
 
Or perhaps to continue swarming via:  
 
21b: dd7s ha5s ha4e ?.?.?
 
 
(This time I had only a few moments to look at the current position so they are only initial thoughts..)
« Last Edit: Jan 22nd, 2008, 3:10am by UruramTururam » IP Logged

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RonWeasley
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Re: Move 21
« Reply #17 on: Jan 22nd, 2008, 7:01am »
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Should we begin voting Wednesday morning or do we need more time?
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The_Jeh
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Re: Move 21
« Reply #18 on: Jan 22nd, 2008, 9:13am »
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on Jan 22nd, 2008, 3:09am, UruramTururam wrote:
How about:  
 
21b: ha5s ha4e hb4w Dc4w ?
 
Or perhaps to continue swarming via:  
 
21b: dd7s ha5s ha4e ?.?.?
 
 
(This time I had only a few moments to look at the current position so they are only initial thoughts..)

 
My own opinion on 21b ha5s ha4e hb4w Dc4w is addressed in my previous post.  
 
I'm not sure about your other option.
 
As far as voting, I was hoping we could get some closing remarks from you, Ron, or Fritzlein, or anyone else for that matter.  
« Last Edit: Jan 22nd, 2008, 12:16pm by The_Jeh » IP Logged
Fritzlein
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Re: Move 21
« Reply #19 on: Jan 22nd, 2008, 11:01am »
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I should have time to analyze and comment Wednesday afternoon if not before.  But there's no need to delay the vote on that account.
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RonWeasley
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Re: Move 21
« Reply #20 on: Jan 22nd, 2008, 3:42pm »
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on Jan 22nd, 2008, 3:09am, UruramTururam wrote:
How about:  
 
21b: ha5s ha4e hb4w Dc4w ?
 
Or perhaps to continue swarming via:  
 
21b: dd7s ha5s ha4e ?.?.?
 
 
(This time I had only a few moments to look at the current position so they are only initial thoughts..)

 
I couldn't find a problem with  21b ha5s ha4e hb4w Dc4w.  It seems to expose the D and may buy us a tempo at least.
 
I'm not sure about the continue swarming idea.  What would we be able to hem in?
 
I don't like options that move our camel to d3 as this invites the E to try to fork it between c3 and f3.
 
The_Jeh's response to Me3w seems positionally good to me.  It drives off the M and threatens the C on c2.  From it we may try to pressure the D or loosen the west side.
 
I'm going to wait until Fritz's final comments before starting the vote, unless we don't get them before Wednesday afternoon.  There are at least two moves in play here and his comments could provide a significant tie breaker for some of us (meaning me).
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UruramTururam
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Re: Move 21
« Reply #21 on: Jan 22nd, 2008, 5:16pm »
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on Jan 22nd, 2008, 3:42pm, RonWeasley wrote:

 
I'm not sure about the continue swarming idea.  What would we be able to hem in?

 
Second glance thoughts about swarming - I can see two possibilities:
 
 21b: dd7s ha5s ha4e ce7w (planning to advance the dog)
 21b: dd7s ha5s ha4e hg6e (planning to catch the wabbit)
 
But I prefer my former proposal mentioned also before by The_Jeh. I agree with Ron that the m->d3 moves can lead us into danger.
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The_Jeh
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Re: Move 21
« Reply #22 on: Jan 22nd, 2008, 5:25pm »
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on Jan 22nd, 2008, 3:42pm, RonWeasley wrote:

 
I couldn't find a problem with  21b ha5s ha4e hb4w Dc4w.  It seems to expose the D and may buy us a tempo at least.
 
[...]
 
The_Jeh's response to Me3w seems positionally good to me.  It drives off the M and threatens the C on c2.  From it we may try to pressure the D or loosen the west side.
 

 
I don't wish to be redundant, but since we're closing this up I thought it wouldn't hurt for me to make my argument again.  
 
I think 21b ha5s ha4e hb4w Dc4w puts us in a good position. But, as I said in a previous post, if we play 21b ed3n Dc4w ed4w ha5s, and chessandgo plays Me3w, the move 22b ec4e Md3e ed4s xxxx puts us in almost the same position. And, based on the analysis that has been done, all responses to this 21b besides Me3w seem to be bad for Chessandgo. Therefore, I still support 21b ed3n Dc4w ed4w ha5s because it grants Chessandgo numerous opportunities to blunder, while still getting us to the same place if he plays correctly. The other move comes in a close second for me.
 
Perhaps 21b ha5s ha4e hb4w Dc4w gains a bit of tempo, I don't know. I do think, though, that 21b ed3n Dc4w ed4w ha5s can gain us considerable reserve time because we already know how to respond to what would appear to be c&g's best option.
 
Not trusting myself completely, though, I await Fritzlein's thoughts.
« Last Edit: Jan 22nd, 2008, 5:27pm by The_Jeh » IP Logged
mdk
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Re: Move 21
« Reply #23 on: Jan 22nd, 2008, 10:02pm »
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I feel that I should at least offer a 4 step move involving Me3w rather than just the one step I offered originally. So how about 22w Me3w Hg3n Hg4w Hf4w or maybe Me3w Hg3n Hg4n Hg5w. These both seem to offer chances for gold to attack our position where our camel is unable to go after the advanced horse. Or am I missing some obvious tactics? It just seems to me that our camel and phant may end up tied down while gold's free horse can advance potentially along with the camel if the position is right. Just my 2 cents.  
 
on Jan 22nd, 2008, 5:25pm, The_Jeh wrote:

 
I don't wish to be redundant, but since we're closing this up I thought it wouldn't hurt for me to make my argument again.  
 
I think 21b ha5s ha4e hb4w Dc4w puts us in a good position. But, as I said in a previous post, if we play 21b ed3n Dc4w ed4w ha5s, and chessandgo plays Me3w, the move 22b ec4e Md3e ed4s xxxx puts us in almost the same position. And, based on the analysis that has been done, all responses to this 21b besides Me3w seem to be bad for Chessandgo. Therefore, I still support 21b ed3n Dc4w ed4w ha5s because it grants Chessandgo numerous opportunities to blunder, while still getting us to the same place if he plays correctly. The other move comes in a close second for me.
 
Perhaps 21b ha5s ha4e hb4w Dc4w gains a bit of tempo, I don't know. I do think, though, that 21b ed3n Dc4w ed4w ha5s can gain us considerable reserve time because we already know how to respond to what would appear to be c&g's best option.
 
Not trusting myself completely, though, I await Fritzlein's thoughts.

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The_Jeh
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Re: Move 21
« Reply #24 on: Jan 22nd, 2008, 11:53pm »
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These are a bit harder to continue, but what do we do?
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Re: Move 21
« Reply #25 on: Jan 23rd, 2008, 8:01am »
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After finally sitting down with this position for a while, I realize it is much more difficult than I had first anticipated.  Much of our perceived advantage was due to our long-term threats to chessandgo's dog.  Now that he is threatening to relieve that pressure by circulating his dog from the west to safety in the east, we are hard-pressed to demonstrate any advantage.
 
Part of the trouble is that our elephant is currently on its best square on d3.  If we use it to contain gold's dog, my superficially favorite move, we cede an excellent square.  My first thought on seeing chessandgo's move was that he had wasted time, but I have now changed my mind.  His move was first-rate as usual, and puts us in a bind.
 
I will create an analysis tree from all current suggestions today, but first let me throw another option into the mix.  The time may have come at last for us to threaten chessandgo's advanced rabbit with 21b hg6e hh6w Rh5n rh8s.  The fourth step is rh8s insteaed of rg7e so that his camel can't make four steps to g5, freezing our horse.  Chesssandgo's elephant can't defend f6 without losing material in the west.  If either his horse or camel defend g6, it may create tactical opportunities for us.  The rabbit pull is at least worth serious consideration.
 
[EDIT]
Oh, I see now that Soter beat me to it.
 
on Jan 18th, 2008, 1:08pm, Soter wrote:
P.S. I assume hg6e hh6w Rh5n xxxx ( dd7s? rh8s? ) is not an option, isn't it?
« Last Edit: Jan 23rd, 2008, 8:51am by Fritzlein » IP Logged

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Re: Move 21
« Reply #26 on: Jan 23rd, 2008, 11:08am »
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Just thought I should throw out some possible moves for gold in response to 21b hg6e hh6w Rh5n rh8s.
 
22w Me3n Me4n Me5n Hg3n ... This would be extremely sharp and unless i am missing an obvious tactic lines would need to be worked out to see who ends up ahead. Also 22w Me3n Me4n Me5n Rf1n and 22w Me3n Me4n Me5 Ce2e may be worth mentioning.
 
22w Hg3n Hg4n Hg5w xxxx where the last step could be Me3n, Rf1n, or Ce2e.
 
on Jan 23rd, 2008, 8:01am, Fritzlein wrote:
After finally sitting down with this position for a while, I realize it is much more difficult than I had first anticipated.  Much of our perceived advantage was due to our long-term threats to chessandgo's dog.  Now that he is threatening to relieve that pressure by circulating his dog from the west to safety in the east, we are hard-pressed to demonstrate any advantage.
 
Part of the trouble is that our elephant is currently on its best square on d3.  If we use it to contain gold's dog, my superficially favorite move, we cede an excellent square.  My first thought on seeing chessandgo's move was that he had wasted time, but I have now changed my mind.  His move was first-rate as usual, and puts us in a bind.
 
I will create an analysis tree from all current suggestions today, but first let me throw another option into the mix.  The time may have come at last for us to threaten chessandgo's advanced rabbit with 21b hg6e hh6w Rh5n rh8s.  The fourth step is rh8s insteaed of rg7e so that his camel can't make four steps to g5, freezing our horse.  Chesssandgo's elephant can't defend f6 without losing material in the west.  If either his horse or camel defend g6, it may create tactical opportunities for us.  The rabbit pull is at least worth serious consideration.
 
[EDIT]
Oh, I see now that Soter beat me to it.
 

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The_Jeh
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Re: Move 21
« Reply #27 on: Jan 23rd, 2008, 12:13pm »
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I'm now becoming interested in Arimaa_master's original 21b ha5s ha4e Dc4e hb4e. The main reason is that we have an extra piece defending b3 so that our elephant is more mobile, we threaten to capture the cat, and the gold dog jams up the works if chessandgo wants to fork our camel. But there may be other perks as well that I don't have time to write about right now.
« Last Edit: Jan 23rd, 2008, 12:15pm by The_Jeh » IP Logged
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Re: Move 21
« Reply #28 on: Jan 23rd, 2008, 12:55pm »
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on Jan 23rd, 2008, 11:08am, mdk wrote:
Just thought I should throw out some possible moves for gold in response to 21b hg6e hh6w Rh5n rh8s.
 
22w Me3n Me4n Me5n Hg3n ... This would be extremely sharp and unless i am missing an obvious tactic lines would need to be worked out to see who ends up ahead. Also 22w Me3n Me4n Me5n Rf1n and 22w Me3n Me4n Me5 Ce2e may be worth mentioning.

 
I think we can beat the super-sharp line, but against the tamer camel advance I can't do better than equality.  I'll look at the other options to see if they appear better for us than an even game.
 

21b hg6e hh6w Rh5n rh8s
.    22w Me3n Me4e Mf4n Rf1n
.    .    22b ed3e ee3n ee4e mc3e
.    .    .    23w Ec5e Ed5s rb3n Ha3e
.    .    .    .    23b ha5e hb5e Dc4s hc5s
.    .    .    .    .    24w Ed4e Ee4n Mf5e Mg5e
.    .    .    .    .    .    24b ef4e eg4n eg5s Mh5w
.    .    .    .    .    .    .    25w Ee5w Ed5s md3e Ed4s
.    .    .    .    .    .    .    .    25b Mg5w eg4n Mf5n Mf6x eg5w
.    .    .    .    .    .    .    .    .    26w me3e mf3x Ed3e Ee3w Ed3n (=)
.    .    .    .    .    24w md3e Ed4s Hb3w Dc3w
.    .    .    .    .    .    24b Mf5n Mf6x ef4n ef5s ce7s
.    .    .    .    .    .    .    25w Ed3w Ec3e hc4s hc3x Rf2n
.    .    .    .    .    .    .    .    25b ce6s ce5s Rf3s me3e (=+)
.    22w Me3n Me4e Mf4n Hg3n
.    .    22b ed3e ee3n ee4e mc3e
.    .    .    23w Ec5e Ed5s Rg1n Rg2n
.    .    .    .    23b ha5e hb5s rb3e hb4s
.    .    .    .    .    24w Hg4n Mf5w Me5n Hg5w
.    .    .    .    .    .    24b Hf5n ef4n Dd2s md3s (-+)
.    .    .    23w Ec5e Ed5s rb3n Ha3e
.    .    .    .    23b ef4w Hg4w Hf4s Hf3x ee4e (-+)

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Re: Move 21
« Reply #29 on: Jan 23rd, 2008, 1:28pm »
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on Jan 22nd, 2008, 5:25pm, The_Jeh wrote:
Perhaps 21b ha5s ha4e hb4w Dc4w gains a bit of tempo, I don't know. I do think, though, that 21b ed3n Dc4w ed4w ha5s can gain us considerable reserve time because we already know how to respond to what would appear to be c&g's best option.

As I look at it more, we might well gain reserve time by heading back to d3 with our elephant the next move, but it looks like it would lose us a bunch of tempo on the board.  Even something like this is possible:
 
21b ed3n Dc4w ed4w ha5s
.    22w Me3w Hg3n Hg4n Hg5w
.    .    22b ec4e Md3e ed4s dd7s
.    .    .    23w Ec5s Rf1n Hf5w He5w
 
But as I look more at this 21b + 22w, I simply don't see how to make progress other than by going back to d3 to threaten a takeover of c3.  The threat to chessandgo's dog in c6 is meaningless unless his elephant is tied to the defense of c3, but at soon as his camel takes d3, his elephant isn't tied to the defense of d3.
 
I'm going to reverse my initial enthusiasm for this move.  In fact, it looks to me now like we might even be losing if we play it, so that I would prefer the mere equality of pulling the h-rabbit.
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