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jdb
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Re: Move 23
« Reply #30 on: Feb 12th, 2008, 6:50pm »
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In the final line using the dog instead of the horse:  
 
23b ed3e ee3n ee4e mc3e  
24w Rf1n Dc4s Ec5e Ed5s  
24b dd7s dd6w dc6s dc5s  
25w rb3n Dc3w hc4s Ed3w  
25b md3e dc3x me3e mf3e Rf2n Rf3x
 
At this moment its 2R for a d and the b4 r is circling the drain.
 
 
26w Hg6s Mf5w Ec4n Ec5e    (Gold could have something better here...)
26b mg3n Hg5n mg4n ef4n
 
Silver ends up down a dog for a rabbit, but has a horse held hostage (or framed) by the camel. Now if I only knew who was winning...
 
 
 
 
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Re: Move 23
« Reply #31 on: Feb 13th, 2008, 1:25pm »
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on Feb 12th, 2008, 6:50pm, jdb wrote:
In the final line using the dog instead of the horse:  
 
23b ed3e ee3n ee4e mc3e  
24w Rf1n Dc4s Ec5e Ed5s  
24b dd7s dd6w dc6s dc5s  
25w rb3n Dc3w hc4s Ed3w  
25b md3e dc3x me3e mf3e Rf2n Rf3x
26w Hg6s Mf5w Ec4n Ec5e
26b mg3n Hg5n mg4n ef4n

 
This is indeed very unclear.  We are not down material: in fact we have two rabbits for our dog, which I rate as material equality.  I don't think that Gold has time to capture our b4 rabbit due to the framed or hostage horse.  However it is not clear to me who has the positional advantage.  A couple of lines:
 

27w Me5s Ed5e he6w Ee5n
.    27b Hg6e mg5n ef5s ha5e
.    .    28w Dd2n Dd3n Me4s Ce2e
.    .    .    28b ef4w df7s df6s rb4w
.    .    .    .    29w ra4e Ha3n Rg1n Rg2n
.    .    .    .    .    29b rb4e hb5s Db3e hb4s  (?)
.    .    .    28b ef4w Dd4w ee4w rb4w
.    .    .    .    29w Ee6s Ee5e ra4e Ha3n
.    .    .    .    .    29b Dc4n ed4w Dc5n Dc6x hb5e
.    .    .    .    .    .    30w Ef5e Eg5w mg6s Hh6w (?)
27w Ed5n he6e Ed6e Me5s
.    27b ef5s hf6s Hg6w mg5n
.    .    28w Ce2n Me4n hf5e Me5e
.    .    .    28b Mf5w ef4n Me5w ef5w
.    .    .    .    29w Hf6s Ee6w Md5s Ed6e
.    .    .    .    .    29b ee5s Ce3e Cf3x ee4s rh7s =+
.    .    28w Dd2n Dd3n Me4s Ce2e
.    .    .    28b ef4w Me3w ee4s rh7s =+
27w he6e Me5n Ed5e Ce2e
.    27b ce7w ha5e rb4w hb5s
.    .    28w Db3e Dc3e Ha3e ra4s
.    .    .    28b Hg6e mg5n ef5s ef4w +=
.    .    28w Me6w cd7n Md6n Ee5n
.    .    .    28b cc7w Hg6e mg5n ef5w =+
27w he6e Me5n Ed5e Ha3n
.    27b Hg6e mg5n ef5s ef4w
.    .    28w Me6w Md6n cc7s cc6x Md7w
.    .    .    28b ee4w ed4n ed5n ed6n
.    .    .    .    29w Ee5w Ed5n rb4e Ha4e
.    .    .    .    .    29b rc8e Mc7n ed7w hf6w =+
.    .    28w Db3e rb4s Dc3e rb3e rc3x
.    .    .    28b rf8w cc7e ee4w ed4n
.    .    .    .    29w Ee5e Ef5e Eg5w mg6s
.    .    .    .    .    29b ed5e rg7s mg5e rg6s
.    .    .    .    .    .    30w Ha4e Hb4n Hb5n Dd3n
.    .    .    .    .    .    .    30b ee5w ed5n ha5e hb5e =+

 
I can't think of this line as a refutation of Soter's move, because we come out ahead in many lines, but it doesn't clearly give us an advantage like I first thought, and in many lines I'm still note sure who is winning at the end.
 
I've spent too long analyzing at this depth since the game probably won't go in this direction.  I'll try now for some analysis closer to the root.
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Fritzlein
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Re: Move 23
« Reply #32 on: Feb 13th, 2008, 3:12pm »
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on Feb 12th, 2008, 4:22pm, The_Jeh wrote:
I think he will probably then push our camel onto f6, creating a strong threat against our b3 rabbit.  
 
On the other hand, a good reply for us might be 25b ef4w Md4n ee4w ha5s, so maybe this move is all right.  But 26w Ef5w Md5w Ee5w Ed5n re-complicates things a bit, as does 26w Ef5w mf6s Md5n Rf1n so I would like to know your opinions on continuation from here, or whether another 25w, 25b, or 26w is better. When I go forward in time, everything seems to turn out good for us. I have not examined variations like 25w Ec5e Ed5e he6e/he6w Ee5n, which could be viable.

 
Nice analysis.  It's hard to ever get closure on these wild positions, but going forward just one more move in your lines it seems we stand somewhat better, i.e. your 24w is not a refutation of Soter's move.
 

23b ed3e ee3n ee4e mc3e
.    24w Hg6s Mf5w Me5w Md5s
.    .    24b md3e me3n me4n me5e
.    .    .    25w Ec5e Ed5e mf5n Ee5e
.    .    .    .    25b ef4w Md4n ee4w ha5s
.    .    .    .    .    26w Ef5w Md5w Ee5w Ed5n
.    .    .    .    .    .    26b ed4n Mc5n ed5w mf6e =+
.    .    .    .    .    26w Ef5w mf6s Md5n Rf1n
.    .    .    .    .    .    26b ed4n Md6w Mc6x ed5n ha4e -+
.    .    .    25w Ec5e Ed5e he6e Ee5n
.    .    .    .    25b Hg5n mf5e hf6s ef4w =+
.    .    .    25w Ec5e Ed5e he6w Ee5n
.    .    .    .    25b Hg5n mf5e Hg6e mg5n =+
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Re: Move 23
« Reply #33 on: Feb 13th, 2008, 3:24pm »
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Well, rats.  It looks like I can't get around JDB's refutation of Soter's move by defending with a dog, because the dog isn't strong enough:
 

23b ed3e ee3n ee4e mc3e
.    24w Dc4s Ec5e Ed5s Rf1n
.    .    24b dd7s dd6w dc6s dc5s
.    .    .    25w Ha3n Ha4e rb3w Dc3w
.    .    .    .    25b ef4e eg4n Hg6w eg5n
.    .    .    .    .    26w md3e Ed4s me3e mf3x Ed3e +=
.    .    .    .    25b ha5e hb5e dc4s hc5s
.    .    .    .    .    26w Ce2n Dd2e md3s Ed4s
.    .    .    .    .    .    26b ef4e eg4n Hg6w eg5n
.    .    .    .    .    .    .    27w Ed3n Ed4s hc4e dc3x Rg1n
.    .    .    .    .    .    .    .    27b eg6s eg5s Mf5e Hf6x rh7s
.    .    .    .    .    .    .    .    .    28w Ed3w md2n Ec3n md3w mc3x
.    .    .    .    .    .    .    .    .    .    28b Mg5w eg4n Mf5n Mf6x eg5w
.    .    .    .    .    .    .    .    .    .    .    29w Ec4n hd4w hc4s hc3x Ec5s +=

 
But we can't defend with the horse instead of the dog on 24b, because losing the horse is too costly.  So suddenly I'm leaning against Soter's move 23b ed3e ee3n ee4e mc3e because 24w Dc4s Ec5e Ed5s Rf1n appears to refute it.  Let me look again at my original 23b from last week and other proposals.
« Last Edit: Feb 13th, 2008, 3:25pm by Fritzlein » IP Logged

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Re: Move 23
« Reply #34 on: Feb 13th, 2008, 3:29pm »
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on Feb 7th, 2008, 4:00am, 99of9 wrote:
I quite like
 
23b  ha5s ha4e Dc4e hb4e
 
Anyone got a good refutation?

 
How would you continue after 24w hc4w Ec5s Ce2n Rf1n?  I'm not sure what would be a good plan from that position that we shouldn't start doing on 23b instead...
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Re: Move 23
« Reply #35 on: Feb 13th, 2008, 3:38pm »
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If we use Soter's move, could a possible 24b be 24b ha5s ha4e Mf5n ef4n? This is the only way I see of defending c3 without putting a piece on c4. Chessandgo won't trade, because we'll have his horse, too. Or is this easily refuted, too?
« Last Edit: Feb 13th, 2008, 3:46pm by The_Jeh » IP Logged
Fritzlein
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Re: Move 23
« Reply #36 on: Feb 13th, 2008, 3:50pm »
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on Feb 11th, 2008, 12:34pm, Janzert wrote:
Just for fun, after 23b ha5s ha4e df7s rf8s OpFor likes at a depth of 11 steps
 
pv Dc4e Ec5s Mf5w df6s b ed3e mc3e Cc2n hb4n w Rb2e Ce2s rb3s Cc3w
 
then switches to
 
pv Ha3n rb3w Rb2n Rb1n b Dc4e mc3n Dd4e mc4e w Ec5w Mf5w df6s Rf1n
 
during the 12 step search, but I didn't let it finish 12 steps deep.
 
Janzert

 
I hadn't considered the first possiblity, because I assumed that the Gold camel would prefer to stay out to the center and out of trouble, but I find it difficult to refute.  After
 
23b ha5s ha4e df7s rf8s
24w Dc4e Ec5s Mf5w df6s
24b ed3e ee3n ee4e mc3e
 
we seem to be holding our own, but it is unclear, and I change my mind who is winning each time I play it out.
 
The second possibility is also very interesting.  A couple of weeks ago I had played some lines where chessandgo lets our rabbit to a3 and our camel out to b3, and I concluded that in general our camel is very hard to take hostage from that setup, and in fact we have a good chance for the camel to escape up the b-file pushing something in front of it to eventually threaten in c6.
 
However, if Gold combines rabbit pull with rabbit advances, it makes it harder for our camel to get out, and the advanced horse/rabbit/dog for Gold are starting to get populous enough to defend each other.  I like a move on the lines of
 
23b ha5s ha4e df7s rf8s
24w Ha3n rb3w Rb2n Rb1n
24b hb4n Rb3n mc3w ed3n
 
But this is very tricky because our camel can sometimes get blockaded on b3.  I haven't played many positions like this, so I have trouble evaluating it.  I'll have to chalk it up as another "unclear" line after my suggested 23b.  Is every line from this position unclear?  I have to give OpFor some credit, though, as its lines seem more to the point than Bomb's.
« Last Edit: Feb 13th, 2008, 4:16pm by Fritzlein » IP Logged

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Re: Move 23
« Reply #37 on: Feb 13th, 2008, 4:42pm »
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on Feb 13th, 2008, 3:38pm, The_Jeh wrote:
If we use Soter's move, could a possible 24b be 24b ha5s ha4e Mf5n ef4n? This is the only way I see of defending c3 without putting a piece on c4. Chessandgo won't trade, because we'll have his horse, too. Or is this easily refuted, too?

That's trivial to refute.  Or, well, it took me four tries to "refute" it and then the best I could do for Gold was equality.  So I guess you have rehabilitated Soter's move in my mind up to equality or a tiny advantage for us, since there was only the one critical line beating it.
 

23b ed3e ee3n ee4e mc3e
.    24w Dc4s Ec5s Ec4e Rf1n
.    .    24b ha5s ha4e Mf5n ef4n
.    .    .    25w md3e Ed4s me3e mf3x Ed3e
.    .    .    .    25b ef5e eg5s Hg6s Mf6x dd7s
.    .    .    .    .    26w Ee3n Ee4e Ef4n Ce2n
.    .    .    .    .    .    26b hb4e dd6s dd5s dd4s =+
.    .    .    .    .    26w Dc3e rb3e rc3x Ee3n Ee4w
.    .    .    .    .    .    26b Hg5w eg4n Hf5n Hf6x eg5w
.    .    .    .    .    .    .    27w Ed4w Ha3n Ce2n Dd2e
.    .    .    .    .    .    .    .    27b ef5w ee5s Ce3e ee4s =+
.    .    .    25w md3e Ed4s he6w Mf6w
.    .    .    .    25b ef5w hd6s Me6w ee5n
.    .    .    .    .    26w me3e mf3x Ed3e Dc3e rb3e rc3x
.    .    .    .    .    .    26b ee6e ef6w Hg6w Hf6x hb4n -+
.    .    .    .    .    26w me3e mf3x Ed3e Hg6s Hg5s
.    .    .    .    .    .    26b Md6w Mc6x ee6w hb4e hd5e
.    .    .    .    .    .    .    27w Dc3e rb3e Ha3e Ee3n =

 
But wait, that last line isn't equality: we can save our rabbit and remain a rabbit ahead.  So maybe Soter's line is actually still to our advantage?  I'm changing my mind so many times I'm getting dizzy!
« Last Edit: Feb 13th, 2008, 4:53pm by Fritzlein » IP Logged

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Re: Move 23
« Reply #38 on: Feb 14th, 2008, 8:41am »
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For this line:
 
23b ed3e ee3n ee4e mc3e  
.    24w Dc4s Ec5s Ec4e Rf1n  
.    .    24b ha5s ha4e Mf5n ef4n  
 
25w Ed4w md3n Dc3e rb3e rc3x
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Re: Move 23
« Reply #39 on: Feb 14th, 2008, 8:58am »
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on Feb 14th, 2008, 8:41am, jdb wrote:
For this line:
 
23b ed3e ee3n ee4e mc3e  
. 24w Dc4s Ec5s Ec4e Rf1n  
. . 24b ha5s ha4e Mf5n ef4n  
 
25w Ed4w md3n Dc3e rb3e rc3x

 
25b dd7s dd6s md4e me4n [this makes f6 a nightmare for c&g]
26w he6w Mf6w Ec4n hb4e
26b ef5n ce7n Me6n ef6w
 
or 26w he6w Mf6w Ec4e Ed4e
26b hd6n ef5n Me6w ef6w
 
leaves us with a huge advantage, I think.
« Last Edit: Feb 14th, 2008, 9:14am by The_Jeh » IP Logged
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Re: Move 23
« Reply #40 on: Feb 14th, 2008, 1:11pm »
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on Feb 14th, 2008, 8:58am, The_Jeh wrote:

 
25b dd7s dd6s md4e me4n [this makes f6 a nightmare for c&g]
26w he6w Mf6w Ec4n hb4e
26b ef5n ce7n Me6n ef6w
 
or 26w he6w Mf6w Ec4e Ed4e
26b hd6n ef5n Me6w ef6w
 
leaves us with a huge advantage, I think.

 
Or for 26b we just frame the camel and win it.
 
So I expect gold to take the .    .    25w md3e Ed4s he6w Mf6w  line.
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Re: Move 23
« Reply #41 on: Feb 14th, 2008, 3:23pm »
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Is 24w Hg6s Mf5w Me5w Hg5e a viable answer to my 23b? We haven't looked at this one I think.
 
 
Quote:
23b ha5s ha4e df7s rf8s  
24w Ha3n rb3w Rb2n Rb1n  
24b hb4n Rb3n mc3w ed3n  
 
But this is very tricky because our camel can sometimes get blockaded on b3.  I haven't played many positions like this, so I have trouble evaluating it.  I'll have to chalk it up as another "unclear" line after my suggested 23b.

 
Only looked at it for a while, but my first impression is not good: blockade seems very probable.
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Re: Move 23
« Reply #42 on: Feb 14th, 2008, 4:13pm »
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on Feb 14th, 2008, 3:23pm, Soter wrote:
Is 24w Hg6s Mf5w Me5w Hg5e a viable answer to my 23b? We haven't looked at this one I think.
 
Only looked at it for a while, but my first impression is not good: blockade seems very probable.

 
Hmm...
23b ed3e ee3n ee4e mc3e
  24w Hg6s Mf5w Me5w Hg5e
  24b ef4w ee4w Md5e ed4n
  25w Hh5w Hg5w he6w/e Me5n
  25b ed5e ce7n Me6n ee5n =+
  25w Hh5w Hg5w Me5s Hf5e
  25b ed5e ee5e Me4n ????(ha5s?)-+
  25w Dc4s Ec5s Ec4e Hh5s
  25b Me5e ed5e Mf5n Mf6x ee5e
  26w rb3n Dc3w md3w mc3x Ed4s
  26b ef5s ef4e eg4w Hh4w
  27w Rg1n Rg2n Ce2e Hg4e
  27b he6e hf6e ha5e rb4w -+
 
 
My tree is likely off a little (or a lot), but what is certain is that this 23b is very complex (which of itself favors us). I think though, that there is no clear way to refute it, and well into our reserve, it is time to think about voting. If this move does get played, I will be quite curious to see c&g's reaction.
« Last Edit: Feb 14th, 2008, 4:41pm by The_Jeh » IP Logged
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Re: Move 23
« Reply #43 on: Feb 14th, 2008, 4:50pm »
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Quote:
I think though, that there is no clear way to refute it, and it is time to think about voting.

 
Good point. I spent a lot of time this evening dabbling with different branches of our move trees ( they are huge! that's great) , but ran out of ideas. What do others think? Do we vote tomorrow?
 
 
 
 
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Re: Move 23
« Reply #44 on: Feb 14th, 2008, 5:02pm »
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Move list ( not sure if complete )
 
1.   23b  ha5s ha4e df7s rf8s    ( Fritz )
2.   23b  ed3e ec3w Ce2n dd7s (Ururam )
3.   23b  ha5s ha4e Dc4e hb4e ( 99 )
4.   23b  ed3e ee3n ee4e mc3e ( Soter )
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