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   Move 28
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   Author  Topic: Move 28  (Read 2451 times)
RonWeasley
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Move 28
« on: Mar 4th, 2008, 8:01pm »
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I told chessandgo that Bomb analysis says his dogs have fleas and they go on the carpet.
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Soter
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Re: Move 28
« Reply #1 on: Mar 5th, 2008, 5:47am »
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ROTFL!  Cheesy  Grin
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RonWeasley
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Re: Move 28
« Reply #2 on: Mar 7th, 2008, 2:09pm »
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If your name is Tony Martin and you wanted to be added to TheMob, please send the request again.  Otherwise I'm assuming you wanted to be on a list associated with Johns Hopkins APL and broadcast your request to the list recipients instead of the list maintainer (and everybody is laughing at you).
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The_Jeh
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Re: Move 28
« Reply #3 on: Mar 17th, 2008, 5:26pm »
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Chessandgo has chosen 28w Ce2e Cf2e Db3n ra3e.
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Fritzlein
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Re: Move 28
« Reply #4 on: Mar 17th, 2008, 10:52pm »
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My first impression is that if we attack f3, chessandgo will be able to defend it adequately while capturing our advanced rabbit.  That will leave us with the advantage of being first to advance a dog in a position where an elephant-dog attack is called for, but no extra material.
 
I am inclined to be more materialistic and save our rabbit from capture in c3.  I would like to contest c3 with our elephant on d3 and full-out western swarm including our horse and more rabbits.  As time permitted, we would also want to advance our dog and perhaps rabbits in the east, but with the idea of complementing our western swarm positionally, not directly taking over f3 or necessarily pulling anything into f6.  It is a no-capture strategy for many moves to come, banking that our EH will keep his EH tied down in the west, and our D will match his D in the east, but somehow our advances will improve our position more than he can improve his.
 
The trouble in deciding between our two main strategic options is that neither one will result in payoff in the near term.  Building an analysis tree will be essentially useless.  We are in the opposite situation from a few moves ago: now there are almost no forcing lines, and the difference between a correct and an incorrect move will not show up for a long time to come.
 
I'm not even sure how to discuss properly in a situation like this.  We can toss out moves for discussion (mine is Ee3w Hd6w Hc6w Ra8s), but probably nobody will be able to refute anyone else's move.  In the end I guess it will come down to a gut feeling as to whether it is worth more to hang on to an extra framed rabbit or to give it up and get a dog on a good square around f3.
 
Thoughts?
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The_Jeh
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Re: Move 28
« Reply #5 on: Mar 18th, 2008, 12:09am »
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I completely agree. Rabbit frames are not so bad once the endgame rolls around (something chessandgo told me that he suspected). Our other material equals his, and d3 is a good square for our elephant even without the rabbit. So we might as well keep it - at least maintaining the frame costs chessandgo some resources. He can't advance too much in the west because it loosens the frame on our rabbit, so the swarming advantage is ours.
 
This is how to talk about these positions. Write generalities that sound nice but that no one can verify.
« Last Edit: Mar 18th, 2008, 12:13am by The_Jeh » IP Logged
UruramTururam
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Re: Move 28
« Reply #6 on: Mar 18th, 2008, 3:12am »
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on Mar 17th, 2008, 10:52pm, Fritzlein wrote:

I'm not even sure how to discuss properly in a situation like this.  We can toss out moves for discussion (mine is Ee3w Hd6w Hc6w Ra8s)
[...]
Thoughts?

 
Well, I agree. The only difference is - I'd advance our dog instead of the rabbit: ee3w hd6w hc6w dd7s
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Re: Move 28
« Reply #7 on: Mar 18th, 2008, 4:43am »
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I can't give any specific moves now but I agree that our R is worth saving. I'm a bit afraid of chessandgo's E running free on the board while ours is pinned on d3, but such position won't be stable, and we'll be potent enough to generate threats. So the frame looks not so terrifying.
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jdb
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Re: Move 28
« Reply #8 on: Mar 18th, 2008, 9:42am »
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In positions with this many pieces exchanged, attacking is generally the correct plan.  
 
It looks like Gold will attack the c6 trap. He already has three heavy pieces on the 4th rank ready to go. If silver attacks the c3 trap, gold's attack on the c6 trap will arrive first. Gold is currently 9 steps from having 3 heavy pieces touching the c6 trap. Silver is more than that for the c3 trap.
 
This leaves attacking the f3 trap. The dog can arrive at g3 in 5 steps. If gold crosses with the elephant to defend, silver's horse is in a much stronger position.
 
I suggest
28b d->f3
 
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RonWeasley
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Re: Move 28
« Reply #9 on: Mar 18th, 2008, 10:43am »
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I like h->b6 because it slows any attack on c6.  I like e->d3 because it preserves our extra rabbit and covers any threat of gold trapping pieces on c3, like the horse I want on b6.  With our final step, I'd like to start our e-d attack right away with d->f6.  On the next move, I'm hoping to put  that dog on g3, where it will be hard for the gold horse to get to it without getting caught crossing.  Our e on d3 can still contribute to threats against pieces around f3.  Then we send rabbits to that area.  If the gold E crosses we have time to protect our advanced rabbit by h->c4 followed by the d7 dog.
 
So 28b ee3w hd6w hc6w df7s
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mistre
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Re: Move 28
« Reply #10 on: Mar 18th, 2008, 1:23pm »
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I am going to go against the general consensus who thinks it is worth keeping the rabbit alive in a frame.  My reasoning is that Chessandgo has the west very well defended and our highest secondary piece cannot beat his highest secondary piece.  We will find it very difficult to break the frame and we probably have to give up the rabbit at a later time anyways.
 
While there is no immediate gain for attacking the f3 trap, I am inclined to go after it because it is under-defended.  
 
My recommended move is:
 
28b ee3s ee2e hd6w hc6w
« Last Edit: Mar 18th, 2008, 1:23pm by mistre » IP Logged

jdb
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Re: Move 28
« Reply #11 on: Mar 18th, 2008, 3:26pm »
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If silver moves the horse to b6, how much does it slow down gold's attack on c6?  If I count correctly, it would then take gold 11 steps to get 3 pieces touching the c6 trap, instead of the original 9 steps.  Silver used two steps to reposition the horse, so it seems about equal.
 
Also, silver's horse is now really a camel. We took great pains to keep the camel in the centre at the start of the game. Why would we voluntarily move it to the wing now?
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Fritzlein
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Re: Move 28
« Reply #12 on: Mar 18th, 2008, 6:17pm »
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on Mar 18th, 2008, 3:26pm, jdb wrote:
Also, silver's horse is now really a camel. We took great pains to keep the camel in the centre at the start of the game. Why would we voluntarily move it to the wing now?

One keeps the deputy (the camel usually, but now the horse) in the center for defense and on the wing to attack.  In the current position we would move the horse to b6 in preparation for getting it to b3.
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Fritzlein
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Re: Move 28
« Reply #13 on: Mar 18th, 2008, 6:37pm »
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on Mar 18th, 2008, 9:42am, jdb wrote:
It looks like Gold will attack the c6 trap. He already has three heavy pieces on the 4th rank ready to go. If silver attacks the c3 trap, gold's attack on the c6 trap will arrive first. Gold is currently 9 steps from having 3 heavy pieces touching the c6 trap. Silver is more than that for the c3 trap.

It seems your count of 9 steps doesn't include any for framing our rabbit.  If he advances all his heavy pieces without first taking four steps to frame our rabbit with his rabbit on b3, then we can start capturing in c3 just with our elephant and rabbit.  Furthermore we will be swarming forward with our own pieces, which will slow him down.  If he has a rabbit on b3, then he can't afford to let any of our pieces break through to b3.  Yes, he already has three pieces on his fourth rank, but we have two on our sixth rank!  Smiley
 
That said, I don't have much experience with what happens when two players try to attack through each other.  It's possible that Gold could gain control of c6 without losing control of c3, and also possible that he could trade control of his home trap for ours in such a way that he captures more in c6 than he loses in c3.  I really don't know.
 
Quote:
This leaves attacking the f3 trap. The dog can arrive at g3 in 5 steps. If gold crosses with the elephant to defend, silver's horse is in a much stronger position.
 
I suggest
28b d->f3

I have nothing against the dog charge, except that it loses our rabbit.  Moving the dog to f3 does guarantee our dog a strong square, which could be worth more than a framed rabbit for all I know.
 
Another possibility is 28b ee3w df7s df6s df5e.  If we try to defend our advanced rabbit we still want to be active in the east as well as the west, and I'm not sure how to divide up the steps.
« Last Edit: Mar 18th, 2008, 6:39pm by Fritzlein » IP Logged

jdb
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Re: Move 28
« Reply #14 on: Mar 18th, 2008, 9:46pm »
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That said, I don't have much experience with what happens when two players try to attack through each other.  It's possible that Gold could gain control of c6 without losing control of c3, and also possible that he could trade control of his home trap for ours in such a way that he captures more in c6 than he loses in c3.  I really don't know.

 
This is what concerns me about focusing the play on the c3/c6 trap. Gold has 9 pieces on the east side(all from gold's POV) and 4 pieces on the west side. Silver's elephant is well placed, so it can count on both sides of the board. This gives silver 8 pieces in the east and 7 pieces in the west.  
 
So assuming that both sides make effective use of all their pieces, gold currently has the material advantage in the east and silver has the material advantage in the west.
 
I don't know how effective silver's attack on c3 will be when we already have a material deficit on that side of the board.
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