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   Author  Topic: Move 33  (Read 8149 times)
mistre
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Re: Move 3333b ec2e
« Reply #30 on: Jun 6th, 2008, 6:27am »
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How about a crazy idea - give up our horse to get play on the c6 trap.
 
33b ec2e Re2s ed2e hb3n
34w hb4s Ec4w hb3e hc3x Eb4s
34b Hf2s ee2e Cg3n dg2n
 
From here, since his E is out of position, we will capture something in C6.  If he scatters, we get a Cat and a possible attack up the barren east side.  If he takes 2 turns to get his E over, we get a Dog.
 
If we decide that trying to play both traps and keeping every one alive will be futile and just lead to worse board position, we might need to give up a piece now.
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warren
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Re: Move 33
« Reply #31 on: Jun 6th, 2008, 7:00am »
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The following line seems to save our material, and is the only one I'm aware of that does so.
 
33b Da3n hb3w dd7s dd6s (99's bot, 12 ply)
 34w Ec4w Eb4s Re2w Rg1w (AM)
  34b Rd2e ec2e Re2s ed2e (AM)
   35w Rc1e Rb1e Rb2e Rc2e (AM)
Silver could play like a bot and delay it further: (with potential for plenty more chasings...)  
    35b Hf2n ee2e Cg3e dg2n (99)  
 
The key idea of that line of play and how to continue it is to delay long enough using goal and material threats to get our d-file dog and some rabbits to swarm the c3 trap, leaving our elephant to go save our hostage g2 dog and harass his horse. Note that it's key to send a rabbit to c4 rather than a dog, since whatever we put there can be taken hostage by his elephant.
 
In alternate lines where we lose a dog, I don't see how the threats we make are worth the loss of dog. I therefore tentatively support 33b Da3n hb3w dd7s dd6s. Does anyone know how he can defeat this move?
 
Update: can someone with a bot please ask it to analyze what he might do after 33b Da3n hb3w dd7s dd6s? Perhaps there's a strong counter that we've missed so far.
« Last Edit: Jun 6th, 2008, 7:15am by warren » IP Logged
Fritzlein
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Re: Move 33
« Reply #32 on: Jun 6th, 2008, 8:21am »
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on Jun 4th, 2008, 10:39pm, The_Jeh wrote:
That move is the best I can do, too. It appears that we can hold on to our material. Here's the best line I could find so far:
 
33b ec2e ed2n dd7s dd6s
34w Ec4w Rb2e hb3s Eb4s
34b De3e ed3e ee3w rb7s
35w Df3n Rc1e Da3n Da4e
35b ed3e rd4s dd5w dc5s
 
The position at the end of this line is double-edged. Chessandgo has a horse and dog held hostage, as well as two free-ranging dogs. We are up a cat and rabbit in material, and have a somewhat dangerous advanced rabbit.
 
I think we should use as much of our seven days as possible to give as many people as possible time to weigh in, with Fritzlein being the name highest in my mind.

The discussion on this move so far is great.  Does the team do better without me?  I'll drive home tonight, and hopefully contribute more analysis then or tomorrow.
 
If the following line is favorable to us (as I suspect) then chessandgo could be in a world of hurt:
 
33b ec2e ed2n dd7s dd6s
34w Ec4w Rb2e hb3s Eb4s
34b De3e ed3e rd4s rd3s
 
In this line the absence of chessandgo's defensive cat in the west may be the critical feature.  What other gold piece can help?  If he has to let go of one of our hostages to defend, the fat lady is singing.
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mistre
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Re: Move 33
« Reply #33 on: Jun 6th, 2008, 10:04am »
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After 33b ec2e ed2n dd7s dd6s
 
Chessandgo can just flip the rabbit to C5:
 
34w Ec4w rd4w rc4n Eb4e
 
This doesn't necessarily make this particular move bad - it might be the best move we have.  But it takes us out of any goal threat position.
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mistre
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Re: Move 33
« Reply #34 on: Jun 6th, 2008, 10:17am »
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on Jun 6th, 2008, 7:00am, warren wrote:
The following line seems to save our material, and is the only one I'm aware of that does so.
 
33b Da3n hb3w dd7s dd6s (99's bot, 12 ply)
 34w Ec4w Eb4s Re2w Rg1w (AM)
  34b Rd2e ec2e Re2s ed2e (AM)
   35w Rc1e Rb1e Rb2e Rc2e (AM)
Silver could play like a bot and delay it further: (with potential for plenty more chasings...)  
    35b Hf2n ee2e Cg3e dg2n (99)  
 
Does anyone know how he can defeat this move?

 
34w Ec4w rd4w Eb4s rc4w appears to be quite damaging to this 33b.  By dragging our R to b4 he creates a triple hostage.  Our only choice then is to create a goal threat through the C3 trap.
 
35b rb7s rb6s rb4e rc4s
 
Then from there it would be a race to see if we can goal versus him given up one or more hostages.
 
 
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arimaa_master
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Re: Move 3333b ec2e
« Reply #35 on: Jun 6th, 2008, 11:11am »
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on Jun 6th, 2008, 6:27am, mistre wrote:
How about a crazy idea - give up our horse to get play on the c6 trap.
 
33b ec2e Re2s ed2e hb3n
34w hb4s Ec4w hb3e hc3x Eb4s
34b Hf2s ee2e Cg3n dg2n
 
From here, since his E is out of position, we will capture something in C6.  If he scatters, we get a Cat and a possible attack up the barren east side.  If he takes 2 turns to get his E over, we get a Dog.
 
If we decide that trying to play both traps and keeping every one alive will be futile and just lead to worse board position, we might need to give up a piece now.

 
Nice idea but gold can take our horse and still stay on c4:
 
33b ec2e Re2s ed2e hb3n
34w Ec4n hb4e hc4s hc3x Ec5s
 
and now  
 
34b Hf2s ee2e Cg3n dg2n
 
meets  
 
35w rd4n Ec4e Ed4e Ee4e
 
and we have no material compensation for lost horse.
 
 
 
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arimaa_master
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Re: Move 33
« Reply #36 on: Jun 6th, 2008, 11:16am »
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on Jun 6th, 2008, 8:21am, Fritzlein wrote:

Does the team do better without me?

 
No way! Without you - we are just groping in the dark.
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arimaa_master
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Re: Move 33
« Reply #37 on: Jun 6th, 2008, 11:29am »
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on Jun 6th, 2008, 8:21am, Fritzlein wrote:

The discussion on this move so far is great.  Does the team do better without me?  I'll drive home tonight, and hopefully contribute more analysis then or tomorrow.
 
If the following line is favorable to us (as I suspect) then chessandgo could be in a world of hurt:
 
33b ec2e ed2n dd7s dd6s
34w Ec4w Rb2e hb3s Eb4s
34b De3e ed3e rd4s rd3s
 
In this line the absence of chessandgo's defensive cat in the west may be the critical feature.  What other gold piece can help?  If he has to let go of one of our hostages to defend, the fat lady is singing.

 
33b ec2e ed2n dd7s dd6s
34w Ec4w Rb2e hb3s Eb4s
34b De3e ed3e rd4s rd3s
 
is interesting but how we will continue after:
 
35w Rc1e Rg1w Rf1w Df3 ?
 
Aren´t we losing something?
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mistre
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Re: Move 3333b ec2e
« Reply #38 on: Jun 6th, 2008, 11:31am »
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on Jun 6th, 2008, 11:11am, arimaa_master wrote:

 
Nice idea but gold can take our horse and still stay on c4:
 
33b ec2e Re2s ed2e hb3n
34w Ec4n hb4e hc4s hc3x Ec5s
 
and now  
 
34b Hf2s ee2e Cg3n dg2n
 
meets  
 
35w rd4n Ec4e Ed4e Ee4e
 
and we have no material compensation for lost horse.
 

 
Well, it turns out it not only is crazy, but stupid.  Scratch this off the potential move list.  Thanks for catching that Arimaa Master.
 
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Re: Move 33
« Reply #39 on: Jun 6th, 2008, 11:58am »
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Quote:
No way! Without you - we are just groping in the dark.

Seconded. It's great you're back, Karl.
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warren
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Re: Move 33
« Reply #40 on: Jun 6th, 2008, 5:47pm »
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on Jun 6th, 2008, 10:17am, mistre wrote:

 
34w Ec4w rd4w Eb4s rc4w appears to be quite damaging to this 33b.  By dragging our R to b4 he creates a triple hostage.  Our only choice then is to create a goal threat through the C3 trap.
 
35b rb7s rb6s rb4e rc4s
 
Then from there it would be a race to see if we can goal versus him given up one or more hostages.

 
A better reply for us was given by 99:
  34b rb7s rb6s rb4e dd5s
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warren
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Re: Move 33
« Reply #41 on: Jun 6th, 2008, 6:04pm »
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on Jun 6th, 2008, 10:04am, mistre wrote:
After 33b ec2e ed2n dd7s dd6s
 
Chessandgo can just flip the rabbit to C5:
 
34w Ec4w rd4w rc4n Eb4e
 
This doesn't necessarily make this particular move bad - it might be the best move we have.  But it takes us out of any goal threat position.

 
Regarding
33b ec2e ed2n dd7s dd6s
 34w Ec4w rd4w rc4n Eb4e  
what about
  34b Da3n hb3w De3e ed3e
   35w Ec4w rc5s rc4s rc3x Eb4e
    35b Da4n ha3n Da5n ha4n
If instead he
   35w Ec4w Eb4s Df3n Rb2e
we swarm his c3 trap as in other lines.
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warren
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Re: Move 33
« Reply #42 on: Jun 6th, 2008, 6:14pm »
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on Jun 6th, 2008, 8:21am, Fritzlein wrote:

The discussion on this move so far is great.  Does the team do better without me?  

The team does better under pressure.
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The_Jeh
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Re: Move 33
« Reply #43 on: Jun 6th, 2008, 8:33pm »
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on Jun 6th, 2008, 11:29am, arimaa_master wrote:

 
33b ec2e ed2n dd7s dd6s
34w Ec4w Rb2e hb3s Eb4s
34b De3e ed3e rd4s rd3s
 
is interesting but how we will continue after:
 
35w Rc1e Rg1w Rf1w Df3 ?
 
Aren´t we losing something?

 
Maybe, but not necessarily.
 
35b ee3w dd5w dc5s rb7s
 
Then c&g can capture the dog, but if he does so, we will basically be equal materially and will have a high-pressure goal attack in place.
 
If he declines to capture, say with
 
36w Re2n Hf2w He2e rd2e
 
then we can play something like
 
36b Re3n ed3e re2w ee3w
 
and capturing the dog will be almost forced upon him.
 
 
I'm not sure these lines are sound for us by any means, but they certainly deserve more scrutiny.
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Fritzlein
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Re: Move 33
« Reply #44 on: Jun 6th, 2008, 8:54pm »
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on Jun 6th, 2008, 11:29am, arimaa_master wrote:

 
33b ec2e ed2n dd7s dd6s
34w Ec4w Rb2e hb3s Eb4s
34b De3e ed3e rd4s rd3s
 
is interesting but how we will continue after:
 
35w Rc1e Rg1w Rf1w Df3 ?
 
Aren´t we losing something?

 
We don't lose material immediately, as we have the direct goal threat 35b ee3w dd5w dc5s dc4s.  However it is still unclear to me after 36w Da3n Da4e Db4e xxxx whether we will be able to use our goal threats to stave off material loss and/or engineer a trade of dogs rather than a loss of our dog.  If we can trade our hostage dog for his that had to expose itself on c4, then we are definitely winning.  I'll look at it more tomorrow.
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