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   Author  Topic: Move 35  (Read 6577 times)
99of9
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Re: Move 35
« Reply #15 on: Jun 22nd, 2008, 5:51am »
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on Jun 22nd, 2008, 5:25am, jdb wrote:
35b ed3e ee3s Hf2s ee2e
36w Rc1->e3

Good question, that does slow us down quite a bit.
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warren
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Re: Move 35
« Reply #16 on: Jun 22nd, 2008, 6:48am »
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on Jun 22nd, 2008, 5:25am, jdb wrote:

 
This move looks like it has potential.  
 
What happens if gold plays a move to protect the f3 trap? The threat to silver's hostage horse is not going to go away, so if gold can slow down silver's goal attack enough, he would have a good position. I don't think defending the f3 trap will work for gold, but it needs to be looked at.
 
35b ed3e ee3s Hf2s ee2e
36w Rc1->e3

That 36w seems to quite effectively defuse our attack. I'm returning to thinking that we'll lose our dog for his choice of a rabbit or letting our horse go free.
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Re: Move 35
« Reply #17 on: Jun 22nd, 2008, 8:04am »
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on Jun 22nd, 2008, 2:51am, 99of9 wrote:
Another option for him is
36w Eb3e Ec3e dc4s dc3x Ed3e
36b Cg3n dg2n Rc2n Rc3x hb2e
but I think that still leaves us with quite a good position since we have all the threats.

This is an important point I had missed.   We are very willing to give up our dog in exchange for a rabbit and a freed horse.  CRR for D looks great on this board.  That means that we don't have to retreat our dog from c4 if our elephant leaves.  We can play 35s Ed3e Ee3s xxxx xxxx.  Not pushing the horse right away gives us more flexibility, and maybe those two extra steps can be of some use.  My first contribution will be to see if I can make something of that.
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Re: Move 35
« Reply #18 on: Jun 22nd, 2008, 8:20am »
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on Jun 22nd, 2008, 6:48am, warren wrote:

That 36w seems to quite effectively defuse our attack. I'm returning to thinking that we'll lose our dog for his choice of a rabbit or letting our horse go free.

I'm not sure the move 35b dc4s dc3n Rc2n xxxx guarantees us any compensation for our dog.  Can't he just take our dog, and then if we flip his rabbit, move Da3->b6?
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Re: Move 35
« Reply #19 on: Jun 22nd, 2008, 8:58am »
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With regard to any 35b which contains ed3e ee3s without pushing the horse to f1 - what if Jean answers with something like Rg1w Rd2n Rd3e Da3n? In this case his rabbit stands on f1 and f3 tap gets a third guardian; isn't it dangerous for Silver? Would flipping his H to d2 be a good idea?
 
I think we should take time with this move and not decide too quickly - this may be one of the pivotal moves of the game.
« Last Edit: Jun 22nd, 2008, 10:51am by Soter » IP Logged
Fritzlein
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Re: Move 35
« Reply #20 on: Jun 22nd, 2008, 9:48am »
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on Jun 22nd, 2008, 8:58am, Soter wrote:
With regard to any 35b which contains ed3e ee3s without pushing the horse to f1 - what if Jean answers with something like Rg1w Rd2n Rd3e Da3n?

You are quite right.  The rabbit on f1 prevents us from pushing the horse back later, and I can't make any lines work for us without that horse push.  I consider my suggestion refuted.  However,
 
on Jun 22nd, 2008, 5:25am, jdb wrote:
35b ed3e ee3s Hf2s ee2e
36w Rc1->e3

I'm not sure that JDB's defense actually refutes 99of9's attack.  Recall that we are quite happy to win R for D with our horse being freed, and every bit as happy to win HR for HD, since with horses off our CRR for D will weigh even more heavily.  Consider
 
35b ed3e ee3s Hf2s ee2e
36w Rc1e Rd1e Re1n Re2n
36b Cg3e dg2n rg6s rg5s
37w Eb3e Ec3w dc4s dc3x Dd4e
37b ef2n ef3s Re3e Rf3x rg4w
 
And now I can't find a move for Gold that is better than a horse trade.  For example
 
38w Hf1w Eb3n hb2n Rd2n
38b ce7s rf7s rf6s rd5s
39w hb3e hc3x Eb4s Rg1w Rd3e
39b ef2w Re3e Rf3x ee2n ce6s
 
with a dominating position for us.  I consider 99of9's move rehabilitated, and possibly even winning.  If we can't find a re-refutation, then it may turn out that chessandgo's fourth step on 35w (allowing this attack) was a fatal blunder!
 
(My apologies that my evaluation of the position keeps swinging wildly.  That tends to happen in sharp positions.)
 
(This time I'm glad I analyzed without Bomb.  Our strategic attack takes too long to pay out for Bomb to understand it.  Another example of a position that computers can't play even though it is wild and tactical.  Not that I won't use Bomb to double-check my analysis!)
 
« Last Edit: Jun 22nd, 2008, 9:52am by Fritzlein » IP Logged

warren
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Re: Move 35
« Reply #21 on: Jun 22nd, 2008, 10:04am »
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on Jun 22nd, 2008, 8:20am, Fritzlein wrote:

I'm not sure the move 35b dc4s dc3n Rc2n xxxx guarantees us any compensation for our dog.  Can't he just take our dog, and then  if we flip his rabbit, move Da3->b6?

You're right, we hopefully have a better 35b then that. Does 35b Rd2e ed3s Rc2n ed2w do a better job of saving our horse?
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warren
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Re: Move 35
« Reply #22 on: Jun 22nd, 2008, 10:25am »
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on Jun 22nd, 2008, 9:48am, Fritzlein wrote:

I'm not sure that JDB's defense actually refutes 99of9's attack.

You seem to be right. I therefore currently tentatively support 99's 35b.
 
I'm having trouble remembering all the lines, so I think I'll make another analysis tree now.
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Re: Move 35
« Reply #23 on: Jun 22nd, 2008, 10:31am »
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on Jun 22nd, 2008, 10:04am, warren wrote:

You're right, we hopefully have a better 35b then that. Does 35b Rd2e ed3s Rc2n ed2w do a better job of saving our horse?

We might save our horse, but it looks like an awfully slow plan, assuming we're trying to get the horse all the way to freedom and not just one square away where it can be retaken hostage as soon as our elephant leaves.  Partially freeing the horse only buys us time, and the amount of time it buys us is less than our investment of time.  Without actually calculating it out, I'm confident chessandgo could hurt us before our horse was truly freed.
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Re: Move 35
« Reply #24 on: Jun 22nd, 2008, 10:33am »
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on Jun 22nd, 2008, 10:25am, warren wrote:
I think I'll make another analysis tree now.

Thank you!  Especially for a sharp move that can get refuted and rehabilitated many times, a tree is very helpful.
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warren
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Tree
« Reply #25 on: Jun 22nd, 2008, 10:38am »
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Different moves for us (35b) are separated by =.
 
===============================================
Various replies to:
35b ed3e ee3s Hf2s ee2e (99).
 
36w Rc1e Rd1e Re1n Re2n (jdb)
 36b Cg3e dg2n rg6s rg5s (F)
 .37w Dd4e De4e Hf1w Rg1n (99)
 .37w Eb3e Ec3w dc4s dc3x Dd4e (F)
 . 37b ef2n ef3s Re3e Rf3x rg4w
 . .38w Hf1w Eb3n hb2n Rd2n
 . . 38b ce7s rf7s rf6s rd5s
 . . .39w hb3e hc3x Eb4s Rg1w Rd3e
 . . . 39b ef2w Re3e Rf3x ee2n ce6s
 
 
36w Eb3e Ec3w dc4s dc3x Dd4w (99/gnobot)
 36b Cg3w Cf3x dg2n rg6s rg5s
 
36w Da3n Da4n Da5n Da6e (soter)
 36b Cg3w Cf3x dg2n dc4n rd5e (warren)
 .37w Eb3e hb2n Ec3n hb3e hc3x
 . 37b ef2n Hf1n ef3n Hf2n Hf3x
 . .38w Ec4s dc5s Ec3e dc4s dc3x  
 
36w Eb3e Ec3w dc4s dc3x Hf1w (warren)
 36b Cg3w Cf3x dg2n rb5e rc5s
 .37w rc4s rc3x Dd4w Eb3e hb2n (99)
 . 37b dg3s Rg1w dg2s rd5s (soter, jdb)
 . .38w rd4n Dc4e Dd4e De4e (F)
 . . 38b rd5s rd4s rh7s rh6s
 . . .39w hb3s Ec3w Df4e Dg4e
 . . . 39b rg6s rg5s rg8s rg7s
 . . . .40w Eb3e Ec3w rd3w rc3x Rd2e
 . . . . 40b rg6s rg4s rg5s rg3s
 . . .39w hb3s Ec3w Df4e Da3n (F)
 . . . 39b rh5s rg6e rh6s rh4s
 . . . .40w Eb3e Ec3w rd3w rc3x Dg4e
 . . . . 40b ef2e eg2n rh3s rh2w
 . 37b dg3s Rg1w dg2s rg6s (Soter)
 . .38w Dc4e Dd4e De4e Df4e (99)
 . . 38b rd5w rc5w rb5s hb3s (RW)
 . 37b e->d3, ???? (warren)
 . 37b rd5e re5s re4s re3s (99)
 . .38w Ec3e hb3ex Ed3e Rg1w (bomb/warren)
 . . 38b rh7s rh6s rh5s rh4s (99)
 . . .39w Rf1e He1e Rc1e Rd1e (bomb/warren)
 . . . 39b dg3s dg2n Rg1n rh3s
 . . . .40w Ee3w re2n Rd2e Hf1e
 . . . . 40b Re2w ef2w re3e rf3s
 . . . . .41w Rb1e Rc1e Re1e Rd1e
 . . . . . 41b ee2n Re1n rc8w cc7w
 . . . . . .42w Rf1w Hg1w rf2n Hf1n
 . . . . 40b ef2s Rg2w Rf2n Rf3x ef1n (99)
 . . . .40w Dc4e Dd4e De4e Ee3e (99/bomb)
 . . . . 40b rg6s rg5s dg3e Rg2n (jdb)
 .37w rc4s rc3x Dd4w Dc4e Rc1e (warren)
 . 37b rg6s rg5s dg3e rg4s
 . .38w He1e Rg1n Rd1e Hf1e
 . 37b rh7s rh6s rh5s rh4s (F)
 . .38w Rg1n He1e Rd1e Hf1e (F)
 . . 38b ef2n Rg2w ef3w Rf2n Rf3x (F)
  37w Eb3e Ec3w rc4s rc3x Rc1e (equivalent to above 37w)
  37w Da3n Da4e rc4s rc3x Db4e (F)
 . 37b rg6s rg5s dg3e rg4s (bomb/warren)
 . .38w Eb3e Ec3e Ed3e Hf1e (bomb/warren)
 . 37b rh7->h3 (jdb)
 . .38w PASS
 . . 38b dg3s Rg1w dg2s rh3s
 . 37b ef2w ee2n ee3w dg3n (F)
 . 37b rf7s rf6s rf5s rf4s
 . .38w He1e Rd2e Dc4n Dd4e
 . . 38b dg3n dg4w rf3e rg6s
 . . .39w De4s Eb3e hb2n Ra2n
 . . . 39b ef2n ef3s De3e Df3x rg5s
 . . . .40w Ec3e hb3e hc3x Ed3e Ra3n
 36b Cg3w Cf3x dg2n rg6s rg5s (warren, bad move)
 
36w Eb3e Ec3e dc4s dc3x Ed3e (99)
 36b Cg3n dg2n Rc2n Rc3x hb2e
 
36w H->e3 Rd2n (99)
 36b rf7s rf6s rf5s rf4s (mistre)
 .37w rf3n He3e rf4e Hf3n
 .37w Dd4e De4e Df4w rf3n
36b ef2w ee2w Rd3w ed2n  (mistre)
 .37w Rg1w Rf1n Da3n Da4n
 . 37b Cg3e dg2n rg6s rg5s (w)
 .37w Rg1w Rf1n Rc1e Rd1n (w)
 . 37b Cg3n dg2n dg3e dh3n
 . .38w Da3n Da4e rb5w Db4n
 . . 38b rh7s rh6s ce7w cd7s
 . . .39w ra5s Db5w Rd2e Rh1n
 . . . 39b Cg4n dh4w Cg5w dg4n
 . . . .40w He3n He4e Cf5w Hf4e
 . . . . 40b dg5w rg6s df5n df6w
 . . . . .41w rg5w Hg4n Rh2n Rh3n
 . . . . . 41b de6e Ce5n df6e Ce6e Cf6x
 
36w Hf1w He1n He2n Dd4e (JDB)
36b rd5s rd4s Cg3n dg2n (W)
37w Da3n rd3w He3w De4w
37b Cg4w dg3n Cf4s Cf3x dg4w
38w Eb3n Eb4s dc4w rc3x Dd4w
38b rg6s rg5s rg4s ef2w
 
36w Rc2n Rc3e Rd3e Dd4s (warren)
 36b Cg3e dg2n rg6s rg5s
 
====================
 
35b dc4s dc3n Rc2n xxxx (warren/bomb)
 36w take dog
 .36b flip rabbit to c5
 . 37w  Da3->b6 (F)
 
====================
 
35b ed3e ee3s dc4n rd5e (RW)
 36w Rg1w Dd4e De4s Da3n (RW + mistre's correction)
 .36b Hf2n ee2w Cg3w dg2n
 36w Rg1w Re2n Re3w xxxx
 .36b ee2s Hf2e He2e ee1n
 36w dg2s Hf2w xxxx xxxx
 36w Rg1w dg2e Hf2e xxxx (mistre)
 36w Rd2n Rd3e Dd4e Rg1w (F)
 .36b ee2w Hf2w ed2n dg2s (F; but was "dg2x")
 .36b ee2s Hf2w He2w ee1n
 . 37w Eb3e hb2n Ec3e hb3e hc3x
 . .37b ee2e Re3s Cg3w Cf3x dg2n
 . . 38w De4e Ed3e Ee3e Da3e
 
==========================
 
35b ed3e ee3s dc4w db4w (mistre)
 36w Dd4s Dd3e Rd2n Da3n (soter)
 .36b Hf2s ee2e Cg3e dg2n
 . 37w De3n Hf1w Rh1n Ch3n
 
I will update this post as more moves are discussed.
« Last Edit: Jul 5th, 2008, 11:37am by warren » IP Logged
Soter
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Re: Move 35
« Reply #26 on: Jun 22nd, 2008, 10:50am »
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Quote:
(My apologies that my evaluation of the position keeps swinging wildly.  That tends to happen in sharp positions.)

No problem at all  Smiley ; I think such phenomenon is typical for deep games like Arimaa.
I'm gonna have less work very soon, and I'll try to contribute more. For now I favour 99's proposal.
 
 
« Last Edit: Jun 22nd, 2008, 10:51am by Soter » IP Logged
Fritzlein
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Re: Tree for 99's 35b
« Reply #27 on: Jun 22nd, 2008, 11:28am »
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on Jun 22nd, 2008, 10:38am, warren wrote:
35b ed3e ee3s Hf2s ee2e (99).
36w Eb3e Ec3w dc4s dc3x Hf1w (warren)
36b Cg3w Cf3x dg2n rb5e rc5s

Hmmm, I had only looked at JDB's defense, and not this line at all.  Things don't look as good for us here.  After 37w Da3n Da4e rc4s rc3x Db4e we have only a slight material lead of CC for D, which is counterbalanced by our horse still being hostage.  Given chessandgo's pair of active dogs, if we cover up with 37b ef2w ee2n ee3w dg3n I think in the long run we would have to be happy getting a dog for our hostage horse.  If we play for attack rather than control, it seems to work out the same:
 
37b rf7s rf6s rf5s rf4s
38w He1e Rd2e Dc4n Dd4e
38b dg3n dg4w rf3e rg6s
39w De4s Eb3e hb2n Ra2n
39b ef2n ef3s De3e Df3x rg5s
40w Ec3e hb3e hc3x Ed3e Ra3n
 
Again we have CC for H, and it isn't clear who is ahead.  If we can't do better in this line (e.g. on 36s) then 99of9's move no longer clearly outpaces the alternatives in my mind.
« Last Edit: Jun 22nd, 2008, 11:29am by Fritzlein » IP Logged

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Re: Tree for 99's 35b
« Reply #28 on: Jun 22nd, 2008, 12:29pm »
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on Jun 22nd, 2008, 11:28am, Fritzlein wrote:

Hmmm, I had only looked at JDB's defense, and not this line at all.  Things don't look as good for us here.  After 37w Da3n Da4e rc4s rc3x Db4e we have only a slight material lead of CC for D, which is counterbalanced by our horse still being hostage.  Given chessandgo's pair of active dogs, if we cover up with 37b ef2w ee2n ee3w dg3n I think in the long run we would have to be happy getting a dog for our hostage horse.  If we play for attack rather than control, it seems to work out the same:
 
37b rf7s rf6s rf5s rf4s
38w He1e Rd2e Dc4n Dd4e
38b dg3n dg4w rf3e rg6s
39w De4s Eb3e hb2n Ra2n
39b ef2n ef3s De3e Df3x rg5s
40w Ec3e hb3e hc3x Ed3e Ra3n
 
Again we have CC for H, and it isn't clear who is ahead.  If we can't do better in this line (e.g. on 36s) then 99of9's move no longer clearly outpaces the alternatives in my mind.

 
35b ed3e ee3s Hf2s ee2e
36w Eb3e Ec3w dc4s dc3x Hf1w
36b Cg3w Cf3x dg2n rb5e rc5s
37w Da3n Da4e rc4s rc3x Db4e
 
37b rh7->h3
38w PASS
39b dg3s Rg1w dg2s rh3s
 
If gold waits until 38w to defend, it looks like he loses material to stop the goal. On move 37w, Gold can capture the rabbit in three steps and use the other step to defend. This may be enough to enable a defence on 38w, but I am not sure.
 
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Re: Tree for 99's 35b
« Reply #29 on: Jun 22nd, 2008, 2:00pm »
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on Jun 22nd, 2008, 11:28am, Fritzlein wrote:

Hmmm, I had only looked at JDB's defense, and not this line at all.  Things don't look as good for us here.  After 37w Da3n Da4e rc4s rc3x Db4e we have only a slight material lead of CC for D, which is counterbalanced by our horse still being hostage.  Given chessandgo's pair of active dogs, if we cover up with 37b ef2w ee2n ee3w dg3n I think in the long run we would have to be happy getting a dog for our hostage horse.  If we play for attack rather than control, it seems to work out the same:
 
37b rf7s rf6s rf5s rf4s
38w He1e Rd2e Dc4n Dd4e
38b dg3n dg4w rf3e rg6s
39w De4s Eb3e hb2n Ra2n
39b ef2n ef3s De3e Df3x rg5s
40w Ec3e hb3e hc3x Ed3e Ra3n
 
Again we have CC for H, and it isn't clear who is ahead.  If we can't do better in this line (e.g. on 36s) then 99of9's move no longer clearly outpaces the alternatives in my mind.

After
35b ed3e ee3s Hf2s ee2e
36w Eb3e Ec3w dc4s dc3x Hf1w
36b Cg3w Cf3x dg2n rb5e rc5s
37w Da3n Da4e rc4s rc3x Db4e
 
how about
37b rg6s rg5s dg3e rg4s (bomb/warren)
which seems to pretty much force
38w Eb3e Ec3e Ed3e Hf1e (bomb/warren)
freeing our horse.
 
Update: by the way, Bomb suggested this move after a slightly different variation (different way of capturing c4 rabbit), but it works here too.
« Last Edit: Jun 22nd, 2008, 2:07pm by warren » IP Logged
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